This game needs better DPS feedback

[Jpec07]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?

[Kaurie]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?

Not sure if your post is directed at me, but I feel it is?

To elaborate. I have never spoken out against someone in DF for poor DPS. The worst I have ever said was, "DPS is low" after we hit enrage on A8N. I don't demand others strain themselves.

That said, I do go on the forums and complain about them, because they are being selfish when not trying to their fullest. They are prioritizing their own values above that of the team. Generally, in cooperative environments, everyone tries their hardest to do the best they can for the team. For some reason in FFXIV that isn't the case.

As for 10 minutes - I don't really need the extra 10 minutes usually and it's not fully about time. In a sense it is, as an extra 10 minutes on a 16 minute run means that things are going very slowly then it becomes incredibly boring. This not only means that things take extra time, but all of that time is then made boring. So instead of having fun during my play-time, I am bored for an even longer time. It's an exponential effect.

I am not going to get into a shotgun argument where take sentences apart and quote/reply to lots of sentences separately.

For someone complaining about how it is insulting to you that not everyone plays the same way you do or has the same goals or standards, you seem to be dishing out more insults towards others calling them lazy, selfish casual players who don't care about anyone else vs how insulting others are to you when they just want to clear something even though they might not meet your personal standards. Seriously if you want to play with like-minded people who go above and beyond just clearing the content then it is on you to find such people, use statics or PF's with listed requirements. If use DF then it is perfectly okay if others in the group just want to clear it, if they cannot clear it and it is not a training party...only then do they need to improve. I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it.

I haven't complained about it being insulting, I've complained about it being disrespectful. If complaining that someone is selfish and lazy and being disrespectful is disrespectful in itself - then how does one address it?

The reason why it is selfish has nothing to do with me or personal standards. It has to do with placing ones own values above that of the team. When I go in and try my hardest for the team, that is because I am working for the team. When I go in and decide, I had a long day at work, so I don't feel like pressing more than 2-3 buttons tonight - then you are holding your team back for your own personal reasons. That is selfish behaviour.

To elaborate on this further. It would be completely selfish of myself to go in and maximize my DPS to the detriment of the group. If it meant that I ignored mechanics, or got my co-DPS killed so I could have higher numbers than him (or whatever) that would be selfish actions while having higher DPS. In other words high DPS and being selfish are not mutually exclusive and I never meant to imply they are. However, dragging your feet to the detriment of your team is a selfish action - albeit not the only one.

PS: I am not sure what you have against quoting individual parts of ones post to respond to each individually. It is a form of formatting which makes following the conversation and understanding the rebuttal more clear.


Looks like you added this,

I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it but don't throw a tantrum over it.

??? Do you always suggest that people who disagree with you are throwing tantrums?

[Snugglebutt]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying like taking a word, phrase or sentence and splitting it from the context of the rest of the post.

[Kaurie]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying and that is why I will not play along with such tactics.

Definitely not the purpose of me using that. If you feel I did that to you, I'm sorry. I use it to contain arguments and address them.

On a forum, often people list multiple points and when you blanket respond to the full thing, it can be confusing to what you are talking about. I break it into pieces to keep my argument as clear as possible, and not to mis-represent your argument.

If you feel I did mis-represent you, please let me know. It's possible I may have misunderstood you.

EDIT: I got curious, because I hadn't heard this before - so I looked it up. Internets says, shotgun argumentation is when the arguer offers such a large number of arguments for a position that the opponent can't possibly respond to all of them. That seems to be quite different :\ Regardless, I'm sorry if I took any of your points out of context (but I don't think I did?)

EDIT2: I think this is the one you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallac...out_of_context

[_slowpoke_]

It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game

It seems you are severely confused about (or intentionally misrepresenting) what people mean when they say "acceptable DPS", and it's not nearly as personal and arbitrary as you and others try to make it look like. What (most) people mean with "acceptable DPS" is usually achieved by merely doing your basic rotation. Most jobs - especially with the current gear levels - can pull (close to) 4-digit numbers with barely any effort by doing their most basic rotations¹, and nothing more. Some jobs can even do that by doing their basic Level 50 rotations.

People who don't reach these numbers aren't even trying and/or have a serious lack of understanding about their job. To give you even more perspective: I out-DPS 70-80% of the people in DF as a healer², and most of the time I'm not even playing close to optimally (distracted by VoIP banter, etc). If you believe it is "straining" or "sacrificing your enjoyment of the game" to do your job's most basic rotation, I cannot help you, because we have irreconcilable views on what constitutes basic respectful behavior in a cooperative multiplayer game.

¹ That means only essential CDs/oGCDs, no proper opener, but does include positionals.
² I will ignore any attempts to discuss whether or not healers should DPS etc, as it is missing the point.