This game needs better DPS feedback

[Kaurie]

Great post/point. The thing is, many gamers these days - particularly in MMOs (in my experience) are obsessed with numbers. It's all about numbers. Everything is numbers.


Based on what I've seen I could well imagine some counter-points to your checklist (which I agree with) would be:
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
- "But they could have died faster if "so and so" was doing at least 500dps, which according to my parser they're not, which means they are not playing their class/role optimally (translated: "not up to my personal arbitrary standards which I'm convinced they are obligated to by virtue of being in a party with me, another player, picked randomly from a cross-server pool of players")

[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
"Yes, but are they using them at the optimal times (translated: When I, or some guide on the internet says they should) thus ensuring the best possible DPS? If not, then they're bads and need to "git gud", or not stay in my DF parties".

[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
The healer or raid leader should not have to explain the fights or what to do. That just wastes everyone's time because they have to take the time to explain something, which means the dungeon can take longer than it should (translated: "longer than I want it to"). You are supposed to watch videos before entering a dungeon so you know exactly what to do, even having never been in there before. If you haven't, then you're a bad and are being carried by everyone else"

[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?
"Yes, but we should have done it faster. According to my parser - aka "God" - such-and-such role was not putting out optimal DPS. They were 50dps short of where they should have been, which means it was taking far too long for us to clear the dungeon. These "bads" need to "git gud" and "learn to play", because I'm tired of carrying them."

And by the by, those quotes are pretty much a mash-up of many, many such responses I've seen from some people for whom the game is all about numbers, and whom believe it should be for everyone else as well.

As for the OP, well, all the tools someone needs to learn and play as well as they'd like are available. At the end of the day, it boils down to a simple truth:
"Not everyone takes numbers as seriously as you do, nor are they obligated to because you happen to insist they are".

Believe it or not, many people play these games for enjoyment, to relax, to have fun. They aren't concerned about whether their DPS output is "optimal" or whether they need to spend another hour fine-tuning their rotations, for the gratification of someone else's parser numbers. Put simply, all the preaching and derision over them being "bads" is not going to change how they play, because they simply don't care. They're not playing for the same reason as you, and how you think they should be playing is of no concern to them, nor should it be.

Fortunately FFXIV provides a perfectly good tool for people to gather exactly the kind of group you want to. It's called Party Finder.

If you're dead-set on playing with people who believe in playing at the absolute peak of what's possible, then you should seek out and group up with those people. Someone joins your group who isn't up to your requirements, etc? Kick them.

However, if you're going through Duty Finder, well, you have no control nor say over who's in there with you. The convenience of having the game do all the footwork for you means you're not always going to get your ideal group. Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Can't demand everyone else "raise their game" to your personal standard.

It saddens me that you are so supportive of people playing sub-optimally and selfishly in a team-based cooperative game. In my opinion, that is easily the worst thing with this community at the moment.

[Dyvid]

I was in a sephirot ex clear party the other day, and one of the nin's commented that he was jealous of the rest of our dps. Checked his gear, mix of 220s/230s, 230 weapon, no melds.. So nothing overtly bad. Mention of DPS made me assume he ran a parser.

Friend checked his own after, and said nin was about 400 dps under the other 3 of us. He had glaring rotation errors (and never used his own trick attack). Having the tools (and internet to search rotations) won't always save you.

..we didn't clear anyway. hopefully he compared his data to the other nin for some tips. Parsers might be nice to have in game for some reasons, but it won't save everyone.

I would suspect that NIN was fairly new to the run and didn't know all the mechanics yet. This is the key point people seem to be missing when demanding parsers for all.

SSS is a great tool for letting players know if they have a solid rotation or not, but knowing the fight is key. If you are new and still learning, your dpsing is going to suffer and no parser is going to save you from that. Instead of wondering why someones dps is so low, ask them if they know and understand the fight.

[Kaurie]

I would suspect that NIN was fairly new to the run and didn't know all the mechanics yet. This is the key point people seem to be missing when demanding parsers for all.

Actually that is the main point of why a parser is more useful than SSS. SSS gives you a vacuum DPS number, but that isn't really useful. It's important to know how you perform when you are doing mechanics. As you see this, you can adjust your play and work on your numbers and mechanics simultaneously. Or, as we often do with my static, focus on mechanics. Then once we hit enrage, we start posting numbers and working on that.

[Snugglebutt]

It saddens me that you are so supportive of people playing sub-optimally and selfishly in a team-based cooperative game. In my opinion, that is easily the worst thing with this community at the moment.

The most important thing is clearing the content when not in a training party, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If you cannot accept that then you should stick with statics and not use DF, do content with the people who feel the same way you do instead of trying to force everyone else to play the way you want.

If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people need to rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal a persons rotations are is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done. Show a little respect for others too and not just those who enjoy playing to the same standards or the same way you do.

[Kaurie]

The most important thing is clearing the content, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people should rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done.

I guess for me it is not about the importance of clearing it. It's the importance of working together as a team that I enjoy. If people are playing sub-optimally, it is insulting to the team. It shows they don't care about anyone but themselves, and just want a free ride for their reward. In a team game, I prefer to work with people who work with me to do the best we can do.

Personally, I have a very hard time relating or understanding the mental thought process of players who think otherwise. Generally, I feel I am fairly good at understanding peoples points of view and am a fairly empathetic person, but in this case it's hard for me to fathom.

[raela]

I would suspect that NIN was fairly new to the run and didn't know all the mechanics yet. This is the key point people seem to be missing when demanding parsers for all.

It was a "know all phases" clear party, and he didn't faceplant any mechanics. Maybe he was still iffy on it, but he was making basic rotation errors and not using all of his skills.

Maybe he only recently picked up the parser though. Hopefully he did look at it to get an idea of how to improve.

[FoxyAreku]

I would suspect that NIN was fairly new to the run and didn't know all the mechanics yet. This is the key point people seem to be missing when demanding parsers for all.

There is no excuse for a ninja to not use trick attack. Ever. Regardless of mechanics, anyway.

[Snugglebutt]

I guess for me it is not about the importance of clearing it. It's the importance of working together as a team that I enjoy. If people are playing sub-optimally, it is insulting to the team. It shows they don't care about anyone but themselves, and just want a free ride for their reward. In a team game, I prefer to work with people who work with me to do the best we can do.

You can do that with statics. But you are being insulting towards other people too in not respecting the fact they just care about clearing it and not playing perfectly all the time in DF's. It's a two way street but if want a group where everyone plays the same way you do then you should use statics filled with like-minded people. This game caters to more than just the most hardcore and rightly so. To me what your saying is akin to claiming all the random people in DF's might insulting you by not doing speed runs. Not everyone wants to do speed runs for example, it's not an insult...it's the gambit you run when using random DF groups who did not agree to that as opposed to a static of people who did.

It is not hard to fathom, some people just want to clear it but are in no rush, some people don't want to use perfect rotations and optimal outputs for every single run especially if they already are stressed out and had hard day at work but for those that do there are ways to do so with people like them instead of berating others in DF just because they don't. When they cannot clear it provided it is not a training party, only then do they really need to learn how to do better. Elitism is also something that is damaging to a community.

[Kaurie]

You can do that with statics. But you are being insulting towards other people too in not respecting the fact they just care about clearing it and not playing perfectly all the time in DF's. It's a two way street

How am I being insulting to other players by playing well? Edit: I suppose you mean I am being insulting on the forums to selfish and lazy players? If so, then well, I don't really apologize.

but if want a group where everyone plays the same way you do then you should use statics filled with like-minded people.

That is fairly hypocritical. Why should good players have to go find like minded players, but lazy and selfish players don't?

This game caters to more than just the most hardcore and rightly so.

This game doesn't cater to me at all. It very much caters to casual players who care very little about the people they are surrounded by, and to the top x% of raiders.

It is not hard to fathom, some people just want to clear it but are in no rush, some people don't want to use perfect rotations and optimal outputs for every single run especially if they already are stressed out and had hard day at work but for those that do there are ways to do so with people like them instead of berating others in DF just because they don't. When they cannot clear it provided it is not a training party, only then do they really need to learn how to do better. Elitism is also something that is damaging to a community.

I can fathom that people want to clear. What I cannot fathom is how they can be so selfish and lazy to hold their team back, and assume that the other players are in the 'wrong'.

I dislike your use of hyperbole. There is a massive difference between pulling respectable DPS and pulling perfect rotations. I expect people to try, I don't expect people to be perfect. I expect people to pull greater than 70% of the damage output I do while making mistakes (something I have yet to see in expert roulette). I expect people to be respectful and mindful of the players they are with and actually try their best to work together as a team, and not just drag their feet caring very little for the lives of their teammates.

[Jpec07]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?