This game needs better DPS feedback

[_slowpoke_]

It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game

It seems you are severely confused about (or intentionally misrepresenting) what people mean when they say "acceptable DPS", and it's not nearly as personal and arbitrary as you and others try to make it look like. What (most) people mean with "acceptable DPS" is usually achieved by merely doing your basic rotation. Most jobs - especially with the current gear levels - can pull (close to) 4-digit numbers with barely any effort by doing their most basic rotations¹, and nothing more. Some jobs can even do that by doing their basic Level 50 rotations.

People who don't reach these numbers aren't even trying and/or have a serious lack of understanding about their job. To give you even more perspective: I out-DPS 70-80% of the people in DF as a healer², and most of the time I'm not even playing close to optimally (distracted by VoIP banter, etc). If you believe it is "straining" or "sacrificing your enjoyment of the game" to do your job's most basic rotation, I cannot help you, because we have irreconcilable views on what constitutes basic respectful behavior in a cooperative multiplayer game.

¹ That means only essential CDs/oGCDs, no proper opener, but does include positionals.
² I will ignore any attempts to discuss whether or not healers should DPS etc, as it is missing the point.

[Izularia]

Yeah, people generally seem to suck at taking criticism.

But it's also important in what way people give that critique. I have seen players saying things like "You suck, git gud!" to other players, without giving tips or even saying what is so bad in general. I think all they wanted to do is to bring another player down - that is unnecessary and helpful in no way. How are they supposed to get better when they don't get any advices, and are called out as a "sucker"? THAT puts many players out of this game.

There is no problem with saying that someone needs to step up, it's good to point it out and it definitely can help when it's said in a respectful way. I'm always happy about some good and nice criticism - so are many others, I bet.

[Iromi]

Why are they so afraid of people harassing others? Are they going to reach through the computer and beat them up ? Hello, harassing already exists..I am stalked, followed and harassed to the point where I had to make a separate forum account to hide my main, report people daily for stalking me and the like. and here I am...fine as can be..LOL. Beyond that my BF has been harassed countless times for random things, from simply being my bf to him going afk to use WC to pee for 30 sec...it already happens, just put those GM's to more work or hire more. It's not really that complicated. DPS should be held accountable for their actions, not in a negative way..but so we can help each other and figure out the problem. This DPS meter is long over due..come on Yoshida ;

So people start "harassing" others with an in game dps meter, make a policy where people can't be harassed by it...allow right click report..and VOILA! TOTES HARD....

[whythehate]

But it's also important in what way people give that critique. I have seen players saying things like "You suck, git gud!" to other players, without giving tips or even saying what is so bad in general. I think all they wanted to do is to bring another player down - that is unnecessary and helpful in no way. How are they supposed to get better when they don't get any advices, and are called out as a "sucker"? THAT puts many players out of this game.

There is no problem with saying that someone needs to step up, it's good to point it out and it definitely can help when it's said in a respectful way. I'm always happy about some good and nice criticism - so are many others, I bet.

We can all cherry pick information to back up our points

I have only seen someone personally insulted for their dps once, I have seen low dps players insult healers and tanks more than I care to mention.

I have tried to offer advice myself as nice I could, sometimes they listen and thank me, sometimes I'm then subject to their abuse because "I know how to play my class" and other times just falls on deaf ears

I myself have been insulted numerous times for dps but guess who by? non parser users.

This happened during 3.0 and the introduction of much, you remember the stigma this got? Mchs were being kicked from groups, pfs had mch excluded for nearly every piece of content out their all because their POTENTIAL dps was inferior to other jobs.

I was a ps4 player at that time but I did what I still do today practiced, numerous times I was nearly kicked from duties just for being this job.

One run, I forget what I was doing but we hit enrage. The mnk in the group screamed this Fkn mch kick him they are shit dps, a parser user came to my defense and posted numbers. I was top dps by 300 dps...

[Izularia]

We can all cherry pick information to back up our points

I hope I did understand your comment in the correct way. If not, I'm sorry for the following.

You're right. Everyone has the possibility to look for guides and stuff - but when you get insulted, I think you hesitate to play that game any further. There's a chance for that at least. I know a few people that stopped playing because of that.. yeah, some people are more sensitive than others and get discouraged very often.
If they did get a critique not half that bad and with a nice attitude, I think they would have had the motivation to step up their game.. but who knows.

Edit: It's also true that there are people who don't want to hear that they aren't that good, you're right. But I've seen more people being thankful for useful tips than being "sulky"

[LegitChamp]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance? Over 15 years of MMORPGs and this game more than any of the others I see people expecting top production out of a PuG. I feel lucky to even completed a dungeon in a PuG without half a dozen wipes. If you want perfection go play with a static.

Someone later in this thread was complaining that PuG members were pulling 100-200 dps less than what their friends can pull. People, get your expectations in order, you shouldn't expect a PuG dps to consistently do what known (and presumably decent) dps can do. Now, I agree it is frustrating when the dps are obviously just barely paying attention while watching netflix or something. But, typically, these complaints are aimed not just at those lackluster dps, but also at people legitimately trying just not playing as perfectly as the practiced elitists prefer.

Also, threads like this are why we don't get DPS meters. Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. I personally love dps meters in other MMOs because it gives me something to compete against (whether fellow dps or my own dps) but with the amount of hate thrown at anyone not managing end-game raider dps is it any wonder they refuse to allow them?

Like someone else has mentioned, I will take someone who avoids aoes, knows how to switch targets to avoid ripping aggro, and uses group buffs/interrupts appropriately over someone pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. Yes, both would be ideal, but nobody should expect perfection out of a PuG.

[whythehate]

You're right. Everyone has the possibility to look for guides and stuff - but when you get insulted, I think you hesitate to play that game any further. There's a chance for that at least. I know a few people that stopped playing because of that..
Edit: It's also true that there are people who don't want to hear that they aren't that good, you're right. But I've seen more people being thankful for useful tips than being "sulky"

I understand and agree 100% have no right to actively insult a person, we are on the same page there.

To the comment above, again missing the point completely. The vast majority are expecting people to pull just basic dps, which btw is no where near optimal dps. It's something you should know I.e maintaining heavy thrust on drg (doesn't really matter if this falls off sometimes)
1 2 3 (chaos thrust rotation)
4 5 6 (full thrust rotation)
Using 4th tier combo
Actively trying to hit positionals
Maintaining pleb dot
Using jumps and other ogcds
Try to maintain botd as best you can

All this you should already be familiar with, actually rotation optimising is completely differentm

Of course players will have different goalposts they expect but I can assure you their are only a real handful that actually expect savage style dps from a pug.

[Kaurie]

I think that SSS is a perfectly legitimate way of providing feedback to DPS as to how they are doing. Although, it could be improved. It would be interesting to me to see a scoring system be added to SSS, SABCDE scale for example. This would provide a bit more granularity than you beat it or you didn't. Sure the % remaining when time runs out could give someone some indication of that, but it might be easier to understand for the general populace if they had the scoring scale.

I've never liked damage meters due to their tendency for exclusion rather than improvement. People typically react one of two ways when meters are brought up:

1) Advice is given for improvment, response is: Don't tell me how to play my class
2) No advice is given for improvement, just insults as to how bad someone is doing and they are removed from the group

Neither of these are particularly healthy, happy outcomes. And the rare case is advice is given and accepted graciously...

I agree with those notes on how people often speak; however, this is definitely not exclusive to parser numbers. I see someone with Garuda on Sic doing a knockback and say something- same thing. I see a DPS standing in AoEs and say something, same thing - etc. This is less of a product of parsers and more a product of human nature, people don't like to be told by another human that they are messing up. It is embarrassing. That is why a tool is better suited for it.

For example: A NIN joins DF run of expert, pulls 350 DPS. His co-SMN is pulling 1500+ NIN sees on parser that not only is he pulling nearly 1/5 of the SMN, but he is also pulling less than the tank and the healer. NIN realizes they need to take time to reflect on what they are doing wrong.

Obviously there are thousands of possible outcomes and this was in no way meant to suggest that this is the most likely. I just wrote this out to illustrate my point that parsers can be useful outside of players telling other players to improve - and can easily be used for self improvement. The first step in improving yourself is admitting you have a problem.

I don't really get how this always turns into something complicated or a matter of morality.

If people want to appeal to like the moral values of their religion or something... just remember... Japan is largely a Buddist/shinto country.... No point in waving western religious beliefs of right and wrong over their heads... Thinking the whole world works like the way the "west" thinks is absurd ('murica, hell yeah!' aimrite?).

They will make their own decisions on what they think is right to do. And, that is the way it should be.

If you think about it, most Final Fantasy games are about fighting a highly religious group (if not the church itself) who wants to do thought control and tell the main protagonist how to think and feel. This usually ends in you killing the God they worship in a final boss battle at the end... So yea... different thoughts than the west... proof....lol

SE adding a parser is a pretty black and white feature they have said they want to add... It's not emotionally charged at all. They said they want to do it but it involves completing the add-on system for the game. They have repeatedly pushed this back over and over. Probably because it doesn't sound like a feature that is gonna just draw people in as much as if they just added a new boss battle.

Did I miss something, or where did all this religious talk come from?

[_slowpoke_]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance?

No one wants, expects, or requires optimal performance from DF groups, please stop using this strawman. People are talking about adequate performance, and doing DPS numbers in the lower 3 digits is not adequate performance. Again, almost every DPS job can pull around 1k DPS (+/- 10-20%) by doing very basic rotations that barely require any effort. If someone is pulling sub-500 DPS in current content, they are either not trying (which should rightly get them kicked out of any group) or they don't know what they're doing (in which case it's basically impossible to help because you can't admit to using a parser due to possibly getting reported & banned).

So, again, stop it with the "elitists want everyone to pull Savage level DPS in dungeons" bullshit just because we expect people to put in at least a basic amount of effort when they play with 3-23 other people, because not doing so is selfish, lazy, and disrespectful to these other people.

Did I miss something, or where did all this religious talk come from?

I'm honestly pretty convinced the person who wrote that is/was high. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Kazumac]

You see it's really a disservice to the player base not to have real feedback to the dpsers. In essence people don't know that they could even be improving. Some think, hey I pull good dps I'm fine but they are really doing 300 dps in expert. I can't get mad at them, I'm only sad because they don't know. Then they go into A8 NM and get pummeled by an enrage but hey they do good dps, etc. they don't even know they could be doing significantly better. The game has done a disservice to those players, plain and simple.