This game needs better DPS feedback

[Snugglebutt]

Its not about "you are not reaching 100%". Its more about the growing mass of people not even reaching the 30% mark. There should be a feedback to these players. There are many people outside that don't care about their performance because they don't know how bad they perform. I'm pretty shure there are alot of people, which would try to do better, if they would know about how far they are away from being good (not super or awesome, just good).

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

[RickXRolled]

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

It's always the underperforming players who complain on the forums that they see allot of parser abuse. I wonder why that would be? Always the underperforming players afraid of "harassment" because they are well aware they suck. They just don't want others to be able to see they suck and call them out on it. They do not want to be held accountable.

If everyone were to play well, there would be almost no elitism. Elitism exists because bad players frustrate some people to the point that they become total dicks. If bad players didn't exist, there would be overall less stress and irritation caused by things like enraging on a8n.(a simple casual fight) In other words, bad play breeds elitism.

People don't like deadweight on their team. Which is why deadweight players get kicked from groups. Then the deadweight player comes on the forums to complain about evil elitists kicking them from parties. They cannot win a fight because nobody wants them on their team, which according to them, is the true evil. They paid their 15$ after all.
These people deserve no sympathy. They have no one but themselves to blame. Instead, they blame the players that won't put up with their crap.

I've said this before and I will say this again. The truly toxic players aren't the ones who care about winning and call out people making mistakes. The toxic players are the whiny dead weight players with a large sense of entitlement and fragile feelings.

[Snugglebutt]

It's always the underperforming players who complain on the forums that they see allot of parser abuse. I wonder why that would be? Always the underperforming players afraid of "harassment" because they are well aware they suck. They just don't want others to be able to see they suck and call them out on it. They do not want to be held accountable.

If everyone were to play well, there would be almost no elitism. Elitism exists because bad players frustrate some people to the point that they become total dicks. If bad players didn't exist, there would be overall less stress and irritation caused by things like enraging on a8n.(a simple casual fight) In other words, bad play breeds elitism.

People don't like deadweight on their team. Which is why deadweight players get kicked from groups. Then the deadweight player comes on the forums to complain about evil elitists kicking them from parties. They cannot win a fight because nobody wants them on their team, which according to them, is the true evil. They paid their 15$ after all.
These people deserve no sympathy. They have no one but themselves to blame. Instead, they blame the players that won't put up with their crap.

I've said this before and I will say this again. The truly toxic players aren't the ones who care about winning and call out people making mistakes. The toxic players are the whiny dead weight players with a large sense of entitlement and fragile feelings.

You do not know whether I am a good or bad player, you have never been in a group with me so please don't assume I am bad just because I pointed out a valid argument against their use. On the flip side to your stance...if more people who use party wide parser's were not dicks then it would not be a valid argument against SE implementing an official version. Maybe if people stop being dicks so often SE might change their mind, as might I but no-one forces so many to act like a dick even if they are slightly frustrated. In the end my argument is only valid because so many act that way rather than privately and politely giving advice instead of the public shaming and insulting that often goes on by people using them. Being pissed off or frustrated is not a valid excuse for acting like a dick anymore so than it being a get out of jail free card for murdering the people you simply don't like.

[_slowpoke_]

harassment party wide parser's can and have caused.

Parsers do not cause harassment, they are tools. That's 100% bullshit. Harassers cause harassment, and guess what, it's already a reportable offence. Stop using harassment as an argument against parsers, you are abusing a legitimate and important issue for a disingenuous and invalid argument. Harassment is a very serious problem and I am quite frankly extremely pissed that people like you continue to exploit it for your bullshit. If you would actually care about harassment, you would demand that the already existing anti-harassment policies be better enforced and improved, and not whine about an extremely useful tool that has literally no causal connection to the issue. Stop.

[Snugglebutt]

Parsers do not cause harassment, they are tools. That's 100% bullshit. Harassers cause harassment, and guess what, it's already a reportable offence. Stop using harassment as an argument against parsers, you are abusing a legitimate and important issue for a disingenuous and invalid argument. Harassment is a very serious problem and I am quite frankly extremely pissed that people like you continue to exploit it for your bullshit. If you would actually care about harassment, you would demand that the already existing anti-harassment policies be better enforced and improved, and not whine about an extremely useful tool that has literally no causal connection to the issue. Stop.

How ironic that you accuse me of abusing an argument/position regarding the abuse of the tool in question. A tool which is being used as a method by a lot of people who are more than willing to use against others to publicly shame and harass them.

Does this mean everyone misuses it? No, but a lot of people do and it is partially because of that which SE does not officially support it and is the same reason I do not. The argument I made was valid whether you like it or not. I actually like the idea of personal parser's but I do not like party wide ones because of the abuse I have seen frequently by those who use them. Am I biased in that I can only speak about what I have seen? Yes in the same way others might be biased in the other direction if they haven't seen it happen as much. Can I claim the majority of people abuse it? No, but I can without a doubt say a lot of people do because I have seen a lot of people doing so. Is it a useful and good tool in the right hands? Sure but in my experience it is quite often not used by people the right way.

It is a loaded gun which quite a lot of people are more than willing to fire at another to cause grief or because they lack emotional self control to use it maturely, instead of sticking to polite and private one to one conversations they resort to insults and public shaming in group chat, party wide parser's being the tool they use to do pick their target for their anger and hate. Maybe if less people misused it then myself and SE would have a different policy or stance about it.

Have you considered that this type of harassment is only possible BECAUSE not everyone has access to a parser? I mean if they implemented an in-game parser, that we could all see, as soon as someone calls someone out for low dps (which I do think would happen), everyone can the instantly see if it's justified or not. Either the person being called out IS playing very poorly, in which case they deserve to be called out, or they aren't, and whoever's shouting can be told to STFU.

At the moment, half of us are completely in the dark, someone calls someone else out, none of us know if it's valid or not. I genuinely don't get how more clarity can be deemed to be a bad thing, other than by people who actively want to get carried through content putting in no effort, or are just inherently bad and know a parser would expose them

I have considered that yes. If everyone used it I believe personally it would merely increase the amount of people insulting and being abusive towards others. As shown in here already some people really can't seem to keep their emotions in check and it would be like giving everyone a loaded gun which would increase the amount of people shot. I cannot prove that would happen, it is just a guess but one that makes perfect sense to me.

The thing is even if they are talking to the right person and the person was doing badly...there is still a right way and wrong way to discuss it with them. There is no simple solution since everyone using one could potentially increase the amount of abuse that goes on, personal parser's won't please those who also want party wide ones, people won't all act maturely or more responsibly with it and no matter how strict SE's policies may get on abuse it won't stop some people who lack self control from using it in a bad way...but I cannot see how anyone can pretend that it is not being misused, it is that misuse is a valid reason as to why SE does not officially support.

[randysquirrel]

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused.

Have you considered that this type of harassment is only possible BECAUSE not everyone has access to a parser? I mean if they implemented an in-game parser, that we could all see, as soon as someone calls someone out for low dps (which I do think would happen), everyone can the instantly see if it's justified or not. Either the person being called out IS playing very poorly, in which case they deserve to be called out, or they aren't, and whoever's shouting can be told to STFU.

At the moment, half of us are completely in the dark, someone calls someone else out, none of us know if it's valid or not. I genuinely don't get how more clarity can be deemed to be a bad thing, other than by people who actively want to get carried through content putting in no effort, or are just inherently bad and know a parser would expose them

[Kaurie]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance? Over 15 years of MMORPGs and this game more than any of the others I see people expecting top production out of a PuG. I feel lucky to even completed a dungeon in a PuG without half a dozen wipes. If you want perfection go play with a static.

Interesting that you mention FFXIV has the most elitist crowd, when FFXIV does not allow a parser. That said, no one is asking for perfection, and using this as an argument is strawman argument.

Someone later in this thread was complaining that PuG members were pulling 100-200 dps less than what their friends can pull. People, get your expectations in order, you shouldn't expect a PuG dps to consistently do what known (and presumably decent) dps can do. Now, I agree it is frustrating when the dps are obviously just barely paying attention while watching netflix or something. But, typically, these complaints are aimed not just at those lackluster dps, but also at people legitimately trying just not playing as perfectly as the practiced elitists prefer.

I am not sure if you are referring to me, I have not read every post - but I think mine is one of the few (if not only) which compares PuG DPS to my friends. That said, my friend was pulling 1300 and the median DPS pull 800 with the absolute best DPS pulling 1100. So yes, the absolute best DPS out there pulled 15% less DPS than my friend, and the average pulled 30% less.

Also, threads like this are why we don't get DPS meters. Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. I personally love dps meters in other MMOs because it gives me something to compete against (whether fellow dps or my own dps) but with the amount of hate thrown at anyone not managing end-game raider dps is it any wonder they refuse to allow them?

I do enjoy the irony here, where you are judging an entire community of players on this thread with 0 knowledge of them about being judgmental of other players. You, again, used a strawman argument.

Like someone else has mentioned, I will take someone who avoids aoes, knows how to switch targets to avoid ripping aggro, and uses group buffs/interrupts appropriately over someone pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. Yes, both would be ideal, but nobody should expect perfection out of a PuG.

In most games, and FFXIV specifically, the top DPS will be someone who does mechanics properly. People who do not will often die and their numbers consequently drop. Further, people can tunnel vision without the addition of a parser, and people can parse without tunnel visioning. They not only don't cause one another, but they are not even correlated.

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

You are correct, this is the primary argument about parsers. However, this is less of an argument and more of a concern/fear. Why? Because there is 0 research on the matter, and consequently 0 proof. People can be dicks on the internet - which is just an unfortunate reality. People will be dicks regardless, but parsers can be used by them. Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

As for your added evidence of "i have seen..." this is purely anecdotal - contrary to you I have never seen harassment related to parsing and have seen harassment caused by people clearly not parsing a lot. For example, I've been in pugged coil raids back in 2.x where 1 guy was yelling at everyone else in the raid for having crappy DPS. I was on my SCH, so did not bear the brunt of his madness, but I was parsing and saw that he had the lowest DPS by far. Perhaps if he was parsing he would have realized this and not attacked the guy doing twice his numbers. That doesn't mean that having a parser reduces harassment, and all we can conclude is people have varying experiences and people can be jerks with or without a parser.

As for your final point, a parser can be used without anyone speaking. That is the biggest benefit of it - in my opinion. One can see and adapt their DPS without the need for chatter. I like to promote chatter, but no matter how you take it, people are sensitive and will over-react when being given advice. It is incredibly embarrassing to be told you are not doing well at something.

PS: You can see that for the above poster, I broke his post into pieces for formatting. as I understand you dislike this format, I kept your post all the same. I hope you appreciate it

[Krissey]

I usually just complain about what a shit DPS I am and how I always let BotD fall off. I pull around 1,000 DPS at ilvl 199. Dunno if that's good or bad though.

[_slowpoke_]

Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

There is no possibility of parsers causing harassment, because a tool can't harass anyone. People using said tool can cause harassment, but as multiple people have pointed out, they can (and do) harass people without that tool. We don't need research for that, it's a plain illogical argument. The only thing that empiric research could show is whether there's a correlation between parsers and harassment, and if so, how strong it is. Even then, it would tell us nothing about parsers, but about people who use parsers, and as such what sort of measures we (or rather, SE) should take against these people and their actions (and not against parsers).

[Kazumac]

You see it's really a disservice to the player base not to have real feedback to the dpsers. In essence people don't know that they could even be improving. Some think, hey I pull good dps I'm fine but they are really doing 300 dps in expert. I can't get mad at them, I'm only sad because they don't know. Then they go into A8 NM and get pummeled by an enrage but hey they do good dps, etc. they don't even know they could be doing significantly better. The game has done a disservice to those players, plain and simple.