This game needs better DPS feedback

[whythehate]

The most important thing is clearing the content when not in a training party, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If you cannot accept that then you should stick with statics and not use DF
If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people need to rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal a persons rotations are is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done. Show a little respect for others too and not just those who enjoy playing to the same standards or the same way you do.

Just going to explain this to you.

Last month I decided I would no longer use my main for content below savage, I fancied something different.

I choose drg, I hit the dummies to find out where I was dps wise and redesigned my hotbar (had switched from ps4 to pc so everything gets deleted)

Once I was comfortable with my button positions I checked dps and found myself at 1150 this was what you what say basic dps.

So I asked my friend for advice and searched the forum, after practising each day getting familiar with the opener (advanced drg opener is frigging chaos on a controller) I checked dps again and now I was sitting at 1500 a very nice improvement but I knew there was more things I could do to fully optimise, I began practicing in Alex since ya know mechanics. Each time I was putting out 1.2k+ per run, meanwhile all I see is people far below me.

After 4 weeks of training I'm now sitting comfortable at 1650 dummy dps and have a fairly decent understanding of this job. There's still more improvements to make but this is where it gets to the real min maxing.

When a parser user mentions bad dps, they are no way saying oh shit man you should be doing 1800+ they are pretty much only asking for basic rotation dps

In runs I expect to see at least 1k obviously lower if the fight is extremely mechanic oreitatated or if you are new.

The only way you can fall below that number is:
A you're pretty much Netflix playing, pressing a button every 5 seconds or something
B having serious rotation problems I.e pressing 3 2 1 instead of 1 2 3
C dieing to mechanics

Last night I queued for Alex nm to cap lore

I did 4 runs, in each run only 1-2 dps above 1k (including myself) the rest 800-300

500-600 dps by the way is what we could do at level 50....

A blm 1 run did 297, that's just...trash got his drop too

[Snugglebutt]

-snip-

I am not going to get into a shotgun style argument where take sentences apart and quote/reply to lots of sentences separately.

For someone complaining about how it is insulting to you that not everyone plays the same way you do or has the same goals or standards, you seem to be dishing out more insults towards others calling them lazy, selfish casual players who don't care about anyone else vs how insulting others are to you when they just want to clear something even though they might not meet your personal standards.

Seriously if you want to play with like-minded people who go above and beyond just clearing the content then it is on you to find such people, use statics or PF's with listed requirements. There are tools in the game to allow for such so make use of them, if someone joins such a static or PF who agreed to your demands but does not abide by them then your within your rights to have words with them. If use randomly pugged DF though then it is perfectly okay if others in the group just want to clear it, if they cannot clear it and it is not a training party...only then do they need to improve.

I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it but don't throw a tantrum over it.

[Kaurie]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?

Not sure if your post is directed at me, but I feel it is?

To elaborate. I have never spoken out against someone in DF for poor DPS. The worst I have ever said was, "DPS is low" after we hit enrage on A8N. I don't demand others strain themselves.

That said, I do go on the forums and complain about them, because they are being selfish when not trying to their fullest. They are prioritizing their own values above that of the team. Generally, in cooperative environments, everyone tries their hardest to do the best they can for the team. For some reason in FFXIV that isn't the case.

As for 10 minutes - I don't really need the extra 10 minutes usually and it's not fully about time. In a sense it is, as an extra 10 minutes on a 16 minute run means that things are going very slowly then it becomes incredibly boring. This not only means that things take extra time, but all of that time is then made boring. So instead of having fun during my play-time, I am bored for an even longer time. It's an exponential effect.

I am not going to get into a shotgun argument where take sentences apart and quote/reply to lots of sentences separately.

For someone complaining about how it is insulting to you that not everyone plays the same way you do or has the same goals or standards, you seem to be dishing out more insults towards others calling them lazy, selfish casual players who don't care about anyone else vs how insulting others are to you when they just want to clear something even though they might not meet your personal standards. Seriously if you want to play with like-minded people who go above and beyond just clearing the content then it is on you to find such people, use statics or PF's with listed requirements. If use DF then it is perfectly okay if others in the group just want to clear it, if they cannot clear it and it is not a training party...only then do they need to improve. I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it.

I haven't complained about it being insulting, I've complained about it being disrespectful. If complaining that someone is selfish and lazy and being disrespectful is disrespectful in itself - then how does one address it?

The reason why it is selfish has nothing to do with me or personal standards. It has to do with placing ones own values above that of the team. When I go in and try my hardest for the team, that is because I am working for the team. When I go in and decide, I had a long day at work, so I don't feel like pressing more than 2-3 buttons tonight - then you are holding your team back for your own personal reasons. That is selfish behaviour.

To elaborate on this further. It would be completely selfish of myself to go in and maximize my DPS to the detriment of the group. If it meant that I ignored mechanics, or got my co-DPS killed so I could have higher numbers than him (or whatever) that would be selfish actions while having higher DPS. In other words high DPS and being selfish are not mutually exclusive and I never meant to imply they are. However, dragging your feet to the detriment of your team is a selfish action - albeit not the only one.

PS: I am not sure what you have against quoting individual parts of ones post to respond to each individually. It is a form of formatting which makes following the conversation and understanding the rebuttal more clear.


Looks like you added this,

I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it but don't throw a tantrum over it.

??? Do you always suggest that people who disagree with you are throwing tantrums?

[Snugglebutt]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying like taking a word, phrase or sentence and splitting it from the context of the rest of the post.

[Kaurie]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying and that is why I will not play along with such tactics.

Definitely not the purpose of me using that. If you feel I did that to you, I'm sorry. I use it to contain arguments and address them.

On a forum, often people list multiple points and when you blanket respond to the full thing, it can be confusing to what you are talking about. I break it into pieces to keep my argument as clear as possible, and not to mis-represent your argument.

If you feel I did mis-represent you, please let me know. It's possible I may have misunderstood you.

EDIT: I got curious, because I hadn't heard this before - so I looked it up. Internets says, shotgun argumentation is when the arguer offers such a large number of arguments for a position that the opponent can't possibly respond to all of them. That seems to be quite different :\ Regardless, I'm sorry if I took any of your points out of context (but I don't think I did?)

EDIT2: I think this is the one you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallac...out_of_context

[Xavikon]

I think that SSS is a perfectly legitimate way of providing feedback to DPS as to how they are doing. Although, it could be improved. It would be interesting to me to see a scoring system be added to SSS, SABCDE scale for example. This would provide a bit more granularity than you beat it or you didn't. Sure the % remaining when time runs out could give someone some indication of that, but it might be easier to understand for the general populace if they had the scoring scale.

I've never liked damage meters due to their tendency for exclusion rather than improvement. People typically react one of two ways when meters are brought up:

1) Advice is given for improvment, response is: Don't tell me how to play my class
2) No advice is given for improvement, just insults as to how bad someone is doing and they are removed from the group

Neither of these are particularly healthy, happy outcomes. And the rare case is advice is given and accepted graciously...

[Seraphix2407]

1) Advice is given for improvment, response is: Don't tell me how to play my class
2) No advice is given for improvement, just insults as to how bad someone is doing and they are removed from the group

Neither of these are particularly healthy, happy outcomes. And the rare case is advice is given and accepted graciously...

#1 happens to me alot, however I have met people who do accept and wanna improve and I love it.

[Deathgiver]

When a parser user mentions bad dps, they are no way saying oh shit man you should be doing 1800+ they are pretty much only asking for basic rotation dps

In runs I expect to see at least 1k obviously lower if the fight is extremely mechanic oreitatated or if you are new.

The only way you can fall below that number is:
A you're pretty much Netflix playing, pressing a button every 5 seconds or something
B having serious rotation problems I.e pressing 3 2 1 instead of 1 2 3
C dieing to mechanics

So much this.

A great example of why people could use the feedback is the Sawtooth fight in VA; Attacking the tree has no positional requirements, you can dodge by strafing around the tree, and aside from 1 cast there's 0 downtime. A mnk, at minimum iLVL, just alternating their rear and flank combos and making sure they're facing the tree all the time can do just shy of 900 dps. That's with no oGCD usage and no party buffs being applied. If you head over to fflogs and look at that fight, roughly a third of mnks participating aren't even doing that, and almost every 1 of the mnks below that threashhold were well above the minimum ilvl judging by the average damage per attack. Basically points to the fact that a 3rd of the playerbase can't even be arsed to press 123456 over and over again in the right order at the right time. In game parser would help to identify that you're having issues, and give you an idea of where you should be at. It's not going to fix the issue, but at least the player would know that there is something that needs fixing.

[FoxyAreku]

I've never liked damage meters due to their tendency for exclusion rather than improvement. People typically react one of two ways when meters are brought up:

1) Advice is given for improvment, response is: Don't tell me how to play my class
2) No advice is given for improvement, just insults as to how bad someone is doing and they are removed from the group

Neither of these are particularly healthy, happy outcomes. And the rare case is advice is given and accepted graciously...

Yeah, people generally seem to suck at taking criticism.

[Rawrz]

Yeah, people generally seem to suck at taking criticism.

You take that back! That's harassment! You don't know me!

lulz xD