This game needs better DPS feedback

[Jpec07]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?

[Kaurie]

Note, regarding my checklist on the first page, nothing is saying you can't have good numbers on top of all that. It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game so you can go back to...running around the Aetheryte in Idyllshire? Flirting with Rowena's girls? Swooning over adorable Gobbies?

Like, I can get being annoyed if someone sits there and just autoattacks, and never uses a cooldown, and sits at 50% the damage they could be doing at their iLvl, but if they're at least trying somewhat and stuff is dying and they aren't standing in stuff? I'm fine with my runs taking an extra 10 minutes if it means nobody feels incompetent. DF is content I enjoy, so I honestly don't mind if it lasts a little longer.

Besides, what's really so important that you can't spare an extra 5-10 minutes?

Not sure if your post is directed at me, but I feel it is?

To elaborate. I have never spoken out against someone in DF for poor DPS. The worst I have ever said was, "DPS is low" after we hit enrage on A8N. I don't demand others strain themselves.

That said, I do go on the forums and complain about them, because they are being selfish when not trying to their fullest. They are prioritizing their own values above that of the team. Generally, in cooperative environments, everyone tries their hardest to do the best they can for the team. For some reason in FFXIV that isn't the case.

As for 10 minutes - I don't really need the extra 10 minutes usually and it's not fully about time. In a sense it is, as an extra 10 minutes on a 16 minute run means that things are going very slowly then it becomes incredibly boring. This not only means that things take extra time, but all of that time is then made boring. So instead of having fun during my play-time, I am bored for an even longer time. It's an exponential effect.

I am not going to get into a shotgun argument where take sentences apart and quote/reply to lots of sentences separately.

For someone complaining about how it is insulting to you that not everyone plays the same way you do or has the same goals or standards, you seem to be dishing out more insults towards others calling them lazy, selfish casual players who don't care about anyone else vs how insulting others are to you when they just want to clear something even though they might not meet your personal standards. Seriously if you want to play with like-minded people who go above and beyond just clearing the content then it is on you to find such people, use statics or PF's with listed requirements. If use DF then it is perfectly okay if others in the group just want to clear it, if they cannot clear it and it is not a training party...only then do they need to improve. I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it.

I haven't complained about it being insulting, I've complained about it being disrespectful. If complaining that someone is selfish and lazy and being disrespectful is disrespectful in itself - then how does one address it?

The reason why it is selfish has nothing to do with me or personal standards. It has to do with placing ones own values above that of the team. When I go in and try my hardest for the team, that is because I am working for the team. When I go in and decide, I had a long day at work, so I don't feel like pressing more than 2-3 buttons tonight - then you are holding your team back for your own personal reasons. That is selfish behaviour.

To elaborate on this further. It would be completely selfish of myself to go in and maximize my DPS to the detriment of the group. If it meant that I ignored mechanics, or got my co-DPS killed so I could have higher numbers than him (or whatever) that would be selfish actions while having higher DPS. In other words high DPS and being selfish are not mutually exclusive and I never meant to imply they are. However, dragging your feet to the detriment of your team is a selfish action - albeit not the only one.

PS: I am not sure what you have against quoting individual parts of ones post to respond to each individually. It is a form of formatting which makes following the conversation and understanding the rebuttal more clear.


Looks like you added this,

I gave you a different PoV, take it or leave it but don't throw a tantrum over it.

??? Do you always suggest that people who disagree with you are throwing tantrums?

[Snugglebutt]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying like taking a word, phrase or sentence and splitting it from the context of the rest of the post.

[Kaurie]

Shotgun argumentation Kaurie is a method used by people who often to want to remove the context of what the other person was saying and that is why I will not play along with such tactics.

Definitely not the purpose of me using that. If you feel I did that to you, I'm sorry. I use it to contain arguments and address them.

On a forum, often people list multiple points and when you blanket respond to the full thing, it can be confusing to what you are talking about. I break it into pieces to keep my argument as clear as possible, and not to mis-represent your argument.

If you feel I did mis-represent you, please let me know. It's possible I may have misunderstood you.

EDIT: I got curious, because I hadn't heard this before - so I looked it up. Internets says, shotgun argumentation is when the arguer offers such a large number of arguments for a position that the opponent can't possibly respond to all of them. That seems to be quite different :\ Regardless, I'm sorry if I took any of your points out of context (but I don't think I did?)

EDIT2: I think this is the one you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallac...out_of_context

[_slowpoke_]

It isn't as selfish to consciously play slightly sub-optimally as it is to demand others strain themselves and sacrifice their enjoyment of the game

It seems you are severely confused about (or intentionally misrepresenting) what people mean when they say "acceptable DPS", and it's not nearly as personal and arbitrary as you and others try to make it look like. What (most) people mean with "acceptable DPS" is usually achieved by merely doing your basic rotation. Most jobs - especially with the current gear levels - can pull (close to) 4-digit numbers with barely any effort by doing their most basic rotations¹, and nothing more. Some jobs can even do that by doing their basic Level 50 rotations.

People who don't reach these numbers aren't even trying and/or have a serious lack of understanding about their job. To give you even more perspective: I out-DPS 70-80% of the people in DF as a healer², and most of the time I'm not even playing close to optimally (distracted by VoIP banter, etc). If you believe it is "straining" or "sacrificing your enjoyment of the game" to do your job's most basic rotation, I cannot help you, because we have irreconcilable views on what constitutes basic respectful behavior in a cooperative multiplayer game.

¹ That means only essential CDs/oGCDs, no proper opener, but does include positionals.
² I will ignore any attempts to discuss whether or not healers should DPS etc, as it is missing the point.

[Iromi]

Why are they so afraid of people harassing others? Are they going to reach through the computer and beat them up ? Hello, harassing already exists..I am stalked, followed and harassed to the point where I had to make a separate forum account to hide my main, report people daily for stalking me and the like. and here I am...fine as can be..LOL. Beyond that my BF has been harassed countless times for random things, from simply being my bf to him going afk to use WC to pee for 30 sec...it already happens, just put those GM's to more work or hire more. It's not really that complicated. DPS should be held accountable for their actions, not in a negative way..but so we can help each other and figure out the problem. This DPS meter is long over due..come on Yoshida ;

So people start "harassing" others with an in game dps meter, make a policy where people can't be harassed by it...allow right click report..and VOILA! TOTES HARD....

[LegitChamp]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance? Over 15 years of MMORPGs and this game more than any of the others I see people expecting top production out of a PuG. I feel lucky to even completed a dungeon in a PuG without half a dozen wipes. If you want perfection go play with a static.

Someone later in this thread was complaining that PuG members were pulling 100-200 dps less than what their friends can pull. People, get your expectations in order, you shouldn't expect a PuG dps to consistently do what known (and presumably decent) dps can do. Now, I agree it is frustrating when the dps are obviously just barely paying attention while watching netflix or something. But, typically, these complaints are aimed not just at those lackluster dps, but also at people legitimately trying just not playing as perfectly as the practiced elitists prefer.

Also, threads like this are why we don't get DPS meters. Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. I personally love dps meters in other MMOs because it gives me something to compete against (whether fellow dps or my own dps) but with the amount of hate thrown at anyone not managing end-game raider dps is it any wonder they refuse to allow them?

Like someone else has mentioned, I will take someone who avoids aoes, knows how to switch targets to avoid ripping aggro, and uses group buffs/interrupts appropriately over someone pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. Yes, both would be ideal, but nobody should expect perfection out of a PuG.

[_slowpoke_]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance?

No one wants, expects, or requires optimal performance from DF groups, please stop using this strawman. People are talking about adequate performance, and doing DPS numbers in the lower 3 digits is not adequate performance. Again, almost every DPS job can pull around 1k DPS (+/- 10-20%) by doing very basic rotations that barely require any effort. If someone is pulling sub-500 DPS in current content, they are either not trying (which should rightly get them kicked out of any group) or they don't know what they're doing (in which case it's basically impossible to help because you can't admit to using a parser due to possibly getting reported & banned).

So, again, stop it with the "elitists want everyone to pull Savage level DPS in dungeons" bullshit just because we expect people to put in at least a basic amount of effort when they play with 3-23 other people, because not doing so is selfish, lazy, and disrespectful to these other people.

Did I miss something, or where did all this religious talk come from?

I'm honestly pretty convinced the person who wrote that is/was high. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[KarstenS]

Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time.

Its not about "you are not reaching 100%". Its more about the growing mass of people not even reaching the 30% mark. There should be a feedback to these players. There are many people outside that don't care about their performance because they don't know how bad they perform. I'm pretty shure there are alot of people, which would try to do better, if they would know about how far they are away from being good (not super or awesome, just good).