Drk opener as mt

[Sarcatica]

Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge. Since my aggro combo is one GCD delayed compared to yours due to scourge, plunge's extra damage helps me keep aggro for that moment. Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD.

I love DPSing as a tank, I sympathize and empathize with the idea of pushing out as much as you can, and advocate it. But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there. Let's not forget, it's one opener, not a whole fight of rotations. I feel it helps add to the aggro generated at the start, which to me translates to more time being afford out of tank stance and therefore more DPS. It isn't like I'm pushing for a crappy opener either, after all, I'm benefiting from scourge ticks for half a duration before you use yours. Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

Of course whatever opener is not THAT bad, but it's almost pathetic to rely on something that doesn't have enmity bonus, and on top of that claiming it "helps" which 200pot is probably not going to be, making it better to use to DPS for the most part.
Of course, your opener is not THAT bad, but to claim that a skill that doesn't give enmity bonus "helpful" to maintain aggro is quite a long shot. Happy now? lmao.

People like to start Power Slash combo in Grit, so that you don't have issue with pushing for DPS without having to use extra Power Slashes. If you use Unmend > Plunge > Scourge first, that means you are losing out -20% from both Plunge and Scourge (-20% is 400pot from 500pot, you bet that it's a lot). And people just seem to keep forgetting or don't want to mention about the animation lock? It feels terrible to get locked from using skills, that's is what you get from using Plunge into whatever skills next.

If you think using Scourge early is better with the -20%, you only take 7.5sec to do PS combo, Grit off and Scourge away all you want. Remember that if you apply Scourge early during Grit uptime, it's very awkward for you to reapply it when you don't have Grit up.

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing. There are rarely cases where you want to use Plunge on pull or saving it for mechanics.

[Hierro]

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

[Sarcatica]

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

Blame SE's 1k char limit. Forgot to copy the whole thing before I edited further.

Note: If anyone has better idea to best DRK opener as MT, it's way better if you can prove it with something tangible and not just theory. Not nitpicking about what I "rephrase" because I forgot and was lazy to edit it further.

[Chronons]

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing.

This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

[Sarcatica]

This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

[Chronons]

Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

[MagiusNecros]

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

I should try this on groups of overworld enemies and see how it goes. Personally if I do a yolo Unmend>Plunge pull it's to turn a Boss around. I just feel like frontloading as much potency as I can in Grit so I can unload as much Enmity as I can before deciding if dropping Grit is a smart thing to do. Not using that gap closer skill initially is just gonna make me go "WHERE IS THE PLUNGE!?" Otherwise it just doesn't feel the same since the Shwooom sound of metal just has that extra OOOMPH effect I need to say this guy is focusing all on me.

[Lyth]

Although this thread is more focused on a general-purpose opener for DRK, sometimes it helps to think of it as more of a set of priorities and tailor your decisions to each fight.

I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

This is interesting. However, to get a sense of an individual tank's priority system in the opener, we have to watch how they approach a few different fights. Let's take a look at one of the cases you mentioned. I've omitted reprisal and LB procs for consistency.

A5S:
Fausts: DA BP > Unmend Salted > HS DP > SpS DD LB > PS DA > Grit off > Scourge (Faust 1) BW > Scourge (Faust 2) C+S > DASE > Scourge
Note: This is tanked with each tank on a different add. Grit is turned off at 10s.

Ratfinks: DA > Unmend Plunge > HS C+S DP > SpS LB > PS Salted DD > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 35s.

A6S: DD > Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s. Salted is used after about 18s.

A7S: Unmend DP LB > HS > SpS Conv Salted > PS Pot > Grit off > Scourge BW > HS DA C+S > DASE Combo
Grit is turned off at 10s.

A8S was an OT opener, so I've excluded it.

General Notes:
This group is using a NIN, so the DRK has access to Shadewalker, allowing for a single PS opener. A pot is usually used after PS and Grit is then dropped. DA C+S is typically held until Grit is dropped to get more potency out of it. This gets followed up by Scourge and a DA SE combo. Plunge typically happens quite late, at around 20s in, sometime after the first DA SE combo goes out. I'm not entirely sure what the rationale is.

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

If you were solo-tanking this (which tends to be the standard PUG approach), you would probably open with AD instead of Unmend. This would prevent you from using a pre-pull DA, so you would probably end up delaying DA DP if you wanted to use it.

Salted Earth gets applied earlier than usual, again because this is multi-target. Hummel lands at 38s for this group, which is another factor in favour for using it earlier. The pot is held for Hummel.

One point on Scourge. It's 500 potency over 30s. Each hit of your Del combo is 226 potency on average, and each hit of your DASE combo is 267 potency on average. Scourge reaches about 260 potency after 12 seconds, so you generally don't want to apply it unless it's going to be ticking for at least 15 seconds. In this scenario, the two Fausts get a Scourge each at around 17s, and Hummel lands at 38s. As clear times become shorter, Scourge will probably get dropped from this opener.

A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

A6S/A67: The A6S and A7S openers are similar, and are probably more representative of a standard pull. The difference is that the A6S opener starts with DD pre-pull, to soften the damage around when the first Brute Force comes in at 7s. Salted gets delayed until about 18 s, probably to allow for repositioning after the mines which come out at 16 s.

So, should you copy this? Well, it depends. If you don't have access to a NIN's Shadewalker, you may need to do two PS combos. This will delay you from turning off Grit. If that's the case, you may not want to delay C+S, which would lead you to opening with DA pre-pull. If you do, DP should come after C+S if it's a single target fight. And each fight should ideally be treated on a case by case basis.

As a general rule of thumb, you don't want to hold on to a cooldown for longer than its recast time. oGCDs with higher potencies and shorter recasts take priority. Proc based oGCDs should be used sooner rather than later on a boss with physical autos, especially if you're going to put up DD early.

[JackFross]

A few things need to be pointed out!

A5S Team Faust: This is tanked with two tanks for the initial Fausts. The pre-pull DA is applied to DP. If this were a single target situation, DA DP would give you only 100 extra potency, and would be better spent on a DA SE later on for 140 extra potency. Because there are two targets (200 potency), we're past the minimum break even point. This only really becomes efficient at 4 adds (DA DP gives you 57% the potency gain of DA C+S at 2 mobs, 86% at 3 mobs, and 114% at 4 adds), but you only see this happen in the opener.

This is inaccurate.
DA+DP is always mana efficient to use at 2+ mobs. It's a classic trap to consider it an alternative to DA+C&S, when it just isn't. You can DA+DP and DA+C&S and only miss out on 1 DA+SE - a gain of 120 potency, compared to the gain of 200 from DA+DP.

A5S Ratfinks: This is the odd one out. The first thing that you should notice is that Grit stays on until 35s. This is due to the increased incoming damage from the headache stacks. Concussion ends at 32s. Because Grit is kept on, there's no point in holding DA C+S. The pot is held because the boss takes less damage when he is large.

This opener starts with Unmend > Plunge. The boss is animation locked at the start of the fight due to his transformation, so you do save travel time in this case by using Plunge as a gap closer. This wasn't the case in the other fights we're looking at, where the mob will move towards you on pull.

As a tank on this fight, you get precisely 9 GCDs before the boss hits you with Concussion. 9 gcds is only ~18s of time. The reason you skip Potion here is for several reasons.
1. He is small for the first two GCDs of the fight
-- This is why you C&S early on. It's more beneficial to use it at 100% potency, rather than holding it 35-50s for him to go small, or using it at 30% reduced effectiveness after Concussion. It's also important to note whether or not the group skipped the first dash! If they DIDN'T, it's a huge loss to hold it. If they DID, it might not be as bad, but still half the cooldown.
2. You wanna use it early to get all 15s, but using it early means skipping Plunge or C&S in the opener - your two strongest ogcd attacks. I would also argue that Scourge should be your first hit, here, but I don't do it on DRK, so what do I know. I just know PLD is GB>RA>GB before concussion. I figure DRK could be SC>PS>DA+SE>SS>Concussion? I dunno.
3. The boss is stationary on pull, so using Plunge is identical to using Unmend.