Drk opener as mt

[Sarcatica]

I do not believe it is as much of a dps loss that you think for a couple of reasons. You are front loading an off-gcd attack by at least 4 gcds during a time you won't be doing anything else anyway. Which is at a minimum 1/3 of a plunge wasted, and it can not reliable fit with any other off-gcd's due to jump delay so other abilities are being delayed, at a minimum blood weapon is delayed. So, 0.8 damage due to grit vs. 1.21 from slashing debuff and trick attack minus 1/3 of a 1.1 potency later assuming just slashing debuff is about 0.84 compared to using it right after unmend. Yeah, you may also get litany, but the damage difference is negligible and at the cost of delaying another off-gcd. Overall it seems to be a wash and front loading plunge after unmend in this way is practically unnoticeable. I simply disagree that it is a substantial loss of dps potency as you mentioned.

It is approximately equal damage if delayed by four gcds, and if you end up even delaying it one more than four gcds then you are losing dps.

The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

[JackFross]

The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

I mean, his comments are pretty close to being correct, and the only thing he tripped on was ignoring Darkside (which doesn't notably change the numbers or the argument).
It'd be 0.92 to use it right at the start and (assuming no TA, but yes slashing) 1.265 if you delay it. Delaying 4 gcds (Hard Slash, Spinning Slash, Power Slash, Scourge) is ~10s so in the long run if delaying it causes you to lose 1 Plunge in 1/3 pulls, then yeah, it'd technically end up being a loss, 1/3 of the time. Personally, I would play to the 2/3 odds of it being a gain, but that's just me.

I can't argue that logic, because it's sound.

It doesn't address the other (more important) arguments for not doing Unmend>Plunge, but it does absolutely debunk my own false perception of the dps gain from using it after Grit is gone, in some cases. I would argue these cases are few and far between, and the overall loss would end up being the 0.92x potency, not some 1/3 amount. You'd be risking 0.92 for 1.265-0.92 = 0.345 of base Plunge potency potential gain. Is that worth it? Not sure. You'd need to know the exact duration of the fight to hazard a guess. I prefer saving it, though it's hard to argue it's not personal preference (so long as the other considerations are taken into account and handled properly - delaying Plunge/using it after Hard Slash instead of after Unmend).

[tremor24]

The DPS gain isn't that substantial but the point still stands that you would want to delay Plunge slightly later for all the debuffs and non-grit. Every little DPS counts towards being a better tank. Inb4 people circlejerk that tanks don't need to do DPS. Deal with it.

I don't believe anyone in this thread would be advocating that tanks don't need to do dps. If you read my post you would see that I do value tank dps gains, and as JackFrost reaffirmed the difference for plunge is mostly personal preference and unless your fully optimizing the job for every fight then either way is not absolutely wrong from a dps standpoint.