Drk opener as mt

[JackFross]

Most important point to tanking as a Dark Knight and pulling a boss:

If you learn NOTHING else, this is THE single most important tip you'll be getting:

Never. Ever. EVER.
N E V E R pull with Plunge or use Unmend>Plunge under any circumstances ever for any reason unless you're pulling A5N or A5S.
Never.
I can't stress enough how infrequently you should do this and how frequently I see people do this.

Stop.

Do not do it.

Ever.

Please.

"But, why not?"
Multiple reasons:
1. If you have a WAR or NIN in the party, you're wasting potency by using it before SE+DE.
2. If you have a DRG, NIN, or MNK, you're forcing them to lose potency by using gap closers on the pull or because they have to run for an additional 1-2s to get to the boss especially when you then proceed to pull the boss all the way north when they shouldn't be tanked north to start anyway.
3. See: 2. It's the most important reason.
4. Positioning. Every single boss in the entire game right now (aside from Ratfinx) should be tanked in the middle of the arena or near the middle when the fight starts. If you plunge to a boss, you force yourself to then have to run backwards to bring it there, missing autos and potential parries as you turn your back to the boss. If you Unmend and delay your run, you can meet the boss in the middle and have it positioned immediately without having to run around. Melee dps can also just run in and meet it middle with you! It's almost like this is how you're intended to pull bosses!
5. See: 3.
6. Animation delay after Plunge (if not used fast enough after Unmend) can cause you to have dropped GCD time, which is a pretty significant loss in the long run.
7. You should be pulling in Grit. You're taking a hit on damage for Plunge when you can use it later at normal potency.

The way I tend to pull as DRK is:
Unmend>[LB]>HS>SS>PS>[DA+drop Grit]>HS>[BW>CaS]>SS>[DP>DA]>SE>[PL]>S>[SE]>HS>[LB>DA]>SS>SE
Salted can probably be dropped pre-pull, but losing the initial shot of Grit damage for a delayed non-Grit SE feels better to me. After that SE, you can slap Grit back on if you feel you need more hate - it's very unlikely you'll lose hate through those two combos, and I generally will just use a PS either in place of the SE there (usually keeping the DA because BW is up and if I need it, I want the (marginally) bigger lead) or as he next combo not shown.

[Yuni_Queen]

Never. Ever. EVER.
N E V E R pull with Plunge or use Unmend>Plunge under any circumstances ever for any reason unless you're pulling A5N or A5S.
Never.

You literally Hitler'ed my faith, that i was good drk. I will never forgive you.
Not like i don't agree with arguments or something. Your arguments are simply 100% correct >.>

I am certain Scourge (along with Salted) should be applied just after dropping grit to do not waste 6,5 sec (2.5 for HS, 2 sec for rest of combo - cause BW), before starting HS. Aaaaaand i have no idea how are you doing this (i ain't mocking you), but after one PS, dropping grit is almost a death wish for hate hold. Almost always need to use either DA+PS or 2-3 PS until grit drop, otherwise you will have to waste mana to get into grit again too fast, to generate some more enmity. that of course has a cost of 2/3 of one DA+SE so most likely there is a loss of 140 potency after dropping grit once again. DRK is not a best class for stance dancing, so not sure if you woudn't like to make adjustment to that rotation.

Also, Plunge should go before DP, until you are going to have excessive mana, then DP goes first.

What i mean, is that you can loose hate in the meantime, you are DRG by main, you know how vicious DRG opening is. One PS will never hold aggro for around 6.5 sec, until you intentionally drop grit only for Salted, CnS and Scourge . However this is around 6.5 (if you use BW to hasten the time - which will be a total loss of BW duration) sec if you want to use one full SE combo before using grit again and additional 2.5 sec until you will be able to use SS after HS to actually generate some hate. This is together 9 sec.
Not a chance for one normal PS to hold aggro for 9 sec to do not be forced to use 3-4 PSs after entering grit again to lower dps hate to the level at least 50% again.

Honestly, i advise using 3 PS comboses, eventually DA+PS > PS comboses and then dropping grit permamently, there will be loss of 20% for CnS, Scourge and Salted, but counting this up, it is better than wasting a lot of potency on PSs that will have to be used instead of SE later + MP on reserves (i remind you, PS combo grants no mana and BW will be still on cooldown after you drop grit again after those 2 PSs. since you made only 6.5 sec under BW and then entered grit for 17.5 sec [two PSs comboses + one GCD for Grit], BW is still 16 sec on cooldown.) You have probably mana only for 1 SE, not to mention, that you are tank, and some emergency DA for DM should be kept. So dps loss is much greater than using simply 2-3 PS comboses at the beggining.

Oh, there is no Blood Price in you rotation, however (if you use it asap after reaching boss - and that's what you should do with BP) effect should wear off exactly after one full SE combo after dropping grit (7.5 sec during first PS combo; 6.5 sec after grit drop), so after getting out of Grit again (after stabilization of aggro with some aditional PS) you are burned out of mana, have no mana granting cooldowns, and can only spam delirium combo, which is highly ineffective.

My rotation is (was for Plunge) almost identical, except Plunge after unmend (;__; now i don't know what to do with my life) except faster Scourge, Salted after dropping grit; and additional PS combo before dropping grit. I believe my rotation is more efficient that this Plunge-Hitler.

PS I will never forgive you.

EDIT: like for opening my eyes for plunge (except those bosses tanked at the edge of course).

[Hierro]

The way I tend to pull as DRK is:
Unmend>[LB]>HS>SS>PS>[DA+drop Grit]>HS>[BW>CaS]>SS>[DP>DA]>SE>[PL]>S>[SE]>HS>[LB>DA]>SS>SE
Salted can probably be dropped pre-pull, but losing the initial shot of Grit damage for a delayed non-Grit SE feels better to me. After that SE, you can slap Grit back on if you feel you need more hate - it's very unlikely you'll lose hate through those two combos, and I generally will just use a PS either in place of the SE there (usually keeping the DA because BW is up and if I need it, I want the (marginally) bigger lead) or as he next combo not shown.

Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge. Since my aggro combo is one GCD delayed compared to yours due to scourge, plunge's extra damage helps me keep aggro for that moment. Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD. The difference between usage is also 15 seconds, if we're comparing your proposal and what everyone else does, and that's not a terribly huge deal breaker. Remember, we're no longer in the age of tight and strict dps checks.

I love DPSing as a tank, I sympathize and empathize with the idea of pushing out as much as you can, and advocate it. But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there. Let's not forget, it's one opener, not a whole fight of rotations. I feel it helps add to the aggro generated at the start, which to me translates to more time being afford out of tank stance and therefore more DPS. It isn't like I'm pushing for a crappy opener either, after all, I'm benefiting from scourge ticks for half a duration before you use yours. Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

[Sarcatica]

Personally, I start with unmend and plunge, followed by scourge. Since my aggro combo is one GCD delayed compared to yours due to scourge, plunge's extra damage helps me keep aggro for that moment. Now, pulling with plunge isn't the worst thing ever. If it were to be used for a pull, well, that's only 20% damage loss on ONE oGCD.

I love DPSing as a tank, I sympathize and empathize with the idea of pushing out as much as you can, and advocate it. But it feels like splitting hairs, having this oGCD here or there. Let's not forget, it's one opener, not a whole fight of rotations. I feel it helps add to the aggro generated at the start, which to me translates to more time being afford out of tank stance and therefore more DPS. It isn't like I'm pushing for a crappy opener either, after all, I'm benefiting from scourge ticks for half a duration before you use yours. Not to say that yours isn't well thought through, but to say what I'm saying isn't bad either.

Of course whatever opener is not THAT bad, but it's almost pathetic to rely on something that doesn't have enmity bonus, and on top of that claiming it "helps" which 200pot is probably not going to be, making it better to use to DPS for the most part.
Of course, your opener is not THAT bad, but to claim that a skill that doesn't give enmity bonus "helpful" to maintain aggro is quite a long shot. Happy now? lmao.

People like to start Power Slash combo in Grit, so that you don't have issue with pushing for DPS without having to use extra Power Slashes. If you use Unmend > Plunge > Scourge first, that means you are losing out -20% from both Plunge and Scourge (-20% is 400pot from 500pot, you bet that it's a lot). And people just seem to keep forgetting or don't want to mention about the animation lock? It feels terrible to get locked from using skills, that's is what you get from using Plunge into whatever skills next.

If you think using Scourge early is better with the -20%, you only take 7.5sec to do PS combo, Grit off and Scourge away all you want. Remember that if you apply Scourge early during Grit uptime, it's very awkward for you to reapply it when you don't have Grit up.

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing. There are rarely cases where you want to use Plunge on pull or saving it for mechanics.

[Hierro]

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

[Sarcatica]

I love how you decided to go back and carefully reword from "pathetic" to "quite a long shot." Props to you~

Blame SE's 1k char limit. Forgot to copy the whole thing before I edited further.

Note: If anyone has better idea to best DRK opener as MT, it's way better if you can prove it with something tangible and not just theory. Not nitpicking about what I "rephrase" because I forgot and was lazy to edit it further.

[Chronons]

If you are able to see the data individually in FFlogs, do see what the top DRKs have been doing.

This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

[Sarcatica]

This was such a good idea, I am doing just that. I have noticed a few things too. First is that nobody is the same lol. All of the top DRKs I looked at seem to have their own unique ways of doing things. Second was that the DRK who completed the worlds first a8s didn't use Plunge on the pull very often. He did however use Dark Passenger right after Unmend for most of the fights that had data. I guess he is more worried about the animation lock of Plunge than he is the dps losses due to Grit as he is using DP in the same way some ppl here are using Plunge - to front load enmity.

edit: The more I look the more diverse it gets. There are some highly skilled DRKs using Plunge on some pulls that others do not.

Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

[Chronons]

Most of the high parsing DRK don't do MT opener simply because they use WAR to pull first. Go see those logs and you will see they don't start with PS combo first, indicating they aren't MT at the start. When DRK does MT opener, you will see PS combo as the first 7.5sec and delayed oGCDs.

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

[MagiusNecros]

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

I should try this on groups of overworld enemies and see how it goes. Personally if I do a yolo Unmend>Plunge pull it's to turn a Boss around. I just feel like frontloading as much potency as I can in Grit so I can unload as much Enmity as I can before deciding if dropping Grit is a smart thing to do. Not using that gap closer skill initially is just gonna make me go "WHERE IS THE PLUNGE!?" Otherwise it just doesn't feel the same since the Shwooom sound of metal just has that extra OOOMPH effect I need to say this guy is focusing all on me.