30 Minute Lockout for Leaving Roulette's isn't Working as Intended.

[Brian_]

So, you want every trial from the same roulette to take the exact same time with the exact same pace for the exact same rewards ? And here I thought people complained that we don't have more varied content...

You missed the OR part. I said you either balance the time investment (so it would make sense to move Aetherial Chemical Research Facility to the MSQ Roulette where its length is closer to the other options) OR you give them bigger bonuses for doing Aetherial Chemical Research Facility.

You do realize that they've already done this, right? They increased the EXP reward from Steps of Faith from the trial roulette sometime after they nerfed it. For my friends that use trial for leveling purposes, they're actually incredibly happy to get SoF now because you get a colossal amount of EXP. They went from auto leaving it to actually trying to queue into it. Amazing what appropriate rewards will do. That's opposed to...

SE had to put a penatly because some jerks were leaving duty right from the beginning. They also had to put a vote kick because people where harassing each other. They had to put a penalty for canceling duty too much time in the same day because people were "farming" in-progress duty...
Strop taking it backwards

...this type of mentality. Where has all that punishment led us? To this day. Where nothing has changed. People still leave duties and more punishment will not stop them. On the flip side you could provide a list ten times as long of all the positive things SE has done to incentivize people to do content and how much more overwhelmingly effective it has been. You're like that parent who keeps beating their child after they're already unconscious thinking child abuse is effective positive psychological reinforcement. There should be a middle ground and the reality is a lot of duties in these roulettes do not have appropriately scaled rewards. That is the reason people leave.

But, I suppose you could continue being blind to the actual problem as well as the actual solution...

Oh, and by the way...Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold were the most avoided dungeon in 2.x despite giving the best Xp reward, so even your solution wouldn't be enough.

...which you prove here. This argument pertains to time returns. Unlike what you've said, DD was one of the most spammed dungeons in 2.X because it was fast, easy, really good EXP. AV was despised because while it gave good EXP it was not time efficient due to how prone AV runs were to end up as wipe fests. AV's EXP reward is not great when the run takes you 40 minutes. Again, it's a no brainer that when the goal is to level quickly, people will gravitate towards content with good time returns.

Just to prove my point, imagine they made it so that a single AV run out of your leveling roulette leveled you straight to 60 in one run and gave you 450 lore and 2000 eso if you queued into it at level 60. People would do it regardless of how torturous the run was. They'd be typing in their /fc chat how hyped they are that they got AV. You'd flip the scale to the opposite side of the spectrum where people leave leveling roulette to try and queue into AV.

And, one final point. When you boost the rewards for certain dungeons / trials so that they're better scaled within the roulette, everyone benefits. The people that weren't going to leave will have better rewards, too. Everyone wins. When you penalize leavers, you will inevitably catch some genuine people in the cross fire as they have already done. One solution is a catch-all plan. The other is a catch 22 plan.

[Reynhart]

You do realize that they've already done this, right? They increased the EXP reward from Steps of Faith from the trial roulette sometime after they nerfed it.

Yet people still leave it en masse because they don't care about the Xp and only want the lvl 60 tome bonus. Pretty effective change.

Unlike what you've said, DD was one of the most spammed dungeons in 2.X because it was fast, easy, really good EXP.

Wrong. The first room of Dzemael was the most spammed Xp place, leading to to people starting the dungeon in their roulette, and seeing 3 other people leaving right before the first boss. Great mentality here.

You're still taking it backwards. You try to justify people being jerks because the game is not rewarding enough, but it's the exact purpose of the roulette. The bonus is right that, a bonus. Why do you get a bonus ? Because you accept the random nature of the roulette. And now, you're telling me that you should be rewarded for that random part on top of...being rewarded for the random part. And I'm pretty sure even if the reward were increased, people would still complain about how much time it takes to complete a Duty, or to cap their tomes...seriously, stop with that fast-food mentality.

Just to prove my point, imagine they made it so that a single AV run out of your leveling roulette leveled you straight to 60 in one run and gave you 450 lore and 2000 eso if you queued into it at level 60.

Then people would complain that they have nothing to do...or complain that Esos should not be capped, or complain about how you still need to buy 40 items with Esos for the Anima or complain how each hyper Anima item costs 1800 esos...or complain about how you should be able to have that reward when going unsynced...or how AV is "tooo haaaard", or how all the parties they end in are bad because their DPS are not perfectly optimal...or just bail out of every other dungeon, leaving those who need to clear them in the dust.

I really thought you've experienced this community enough to understand that the more you give people, the more they'll want...

[Brian_]

Yet people still leave it en masse because they don't care about the Xp and only want the lvl 60 tome bonus. Pretty effective change.

And then you just add more tomes to it and you fix that problem. They already have a system for this. It's the poetic / eso bonus system. They only need to tweak it to apply to certain roulette duties.

Wrong. The first room of Dzemael was the most spammed Xp place, leading to to people starting the dungeon in their roulette, and seeing 3 other people leaving right before the first boss. Great mentality here.

My point was that people gravitate towards low effort, high time efficiency leveling content. Is that point wrong? No. You made the comment that AV has good EXP returns as if that discredits that notion when the premise of that statement was just false.

You're still taking it backwards. You try to justify people being jerks because the game is not rewarding enough, but it's the exact purpose of the roulette. The bonus is right that, a bonus. Why do you get a bonus ? Because you accept the random nature of the roulette. And now, you're telling me that you should be rewarded for that random part on top of...being rewarded for the random part. And I'm pretty sure even if the reward were increased, people would still complain about how much time it takes to complete a Duty, or to cap their tomes...seriously, stop with that fast-food mentality.

They aren't being jerks. You are just interpreting it as such. To me, they are just people who want to farm tomes quickly and easily. Who can genuinely fault them for that? We all would like that. The statement don't hate the player, hate the game applies here. It's an imbalanced system with loopholes that allow abuse. Don't punish the players because your system is flawed. Fix the system through a positive and productive change.

You're the one taking it backwards by adding more layers of punishment that inevitably have collateral damage.

Then people would complain that they have nothing to do...or complain that Esos should not be capped, or complain about how you still need to buy 40 items with Esos for the Anima or complain how each hyper Anima item costs 1800 esos...or complain about how you should be able to have that reward when going unsynced...or how AV is "tooo haaaard", or how all the parties they end in are bad because their DPS are not perfectly optimal...or just bail out of every other dungeon, leaving those who need to clear them in the dust.

I really thought you've experienced this community enough to understand that the more you give people, the more they'll want...

Irrelevant rambling. The concept of balance is the basis of the adjustments. Just look at Pharos Sirius HM / Saint Arboretum vs. Neverreap / Fractal. The former is a longer run but balances that through a larger tomestone reward and no ilevel sync. The latter is a faster dungeon but gives less tomestones. There is a balance there that Aetherial Chemical Research Facility falls well outside of. People aren't asking for more. They are apparently perfectly fine with certain rewards in the roulette -- so perfectly fine that they don't mind waiting out the penalty for them.

[Reynhart]

My point was that people gravitate towards low effort, high time efficiency leveling content.

Yes, people gravitates towards the least effort, but the more you ease everything, the more they ask for an easier way. That'exactly why the roulette was created, to ease tome farming. And people still complain...

They aren't being jerks. You are just interpreting it as such. To me, they are just people who want to farm tomes quickly and easily.

So what ? We should feel sorry for those who don't want to finish a dungeon and just leave you there because the last part is not Xp efficient ? We should feel sorry for those who leave a 24-man raid when a boss doesn't drop the one thing they want or they just lose the roll ?
And what should we say to those penalized by that ? "Deal with it" ?

You're the one taking it backwards by adding more layers of punishment that inevitably have collateral damage.

What collateral damage ? If you take a penalty when purposely withdrawing or staying AFK for so long that the duty automatically kicks you out, how can you end up being a "collateral" damage ?

They are apparently perfectly fine with certain rewards in the roulette -- so perfectly fine that they don't mind waiting out the penalty for them.

Of course they don't, since it costs them nothing apart from a little slap on the wrist. It's like in real life, If all you risk by breaking a rule is "Oh, that's not nice", then you'll just break it all the time.

Just see any content that requires a huge amount of gils...you'll see dozens of topics saying that anything that costs gils just promotes gil buying. Some people are perfectly fine with buying gils instead of playing the game for a longterm goal...and then they complain that they have no longterm goal...

[Zojha]

Of course they don't, since it costs them nothing apart from a little slap on the wrist.

Side note: The same applies for rewards as well. Rewards only function as incentive if people care about the rewards. If a reward isn't appealing and conversely, if a punishment isn't actually hurting, it's inconsequential.

[Reynhart]

Side note: The same applies for rewards as well. Rewards only function as incentive if people care about the rewards. If a reward isn't appealing and conversely, if a punishment isn't actually hurting, it's inconsequential.

Right, but the reward is not given to you "for free".
Why should a lvl16 dungeon reward you with tokens for ilvl 200 or ilvl 230 items ? The tradeoff is, again, accepting the random nature of the roulette.
If you don't think the reward is enough for the random part, then stop queuing for a roulette.

Here you have people who want the reward but don't want the randomness...and in so, screwing other people...and being offended when you scold them for that.

[Brian_]

Yes, people gravitates towards the least effort, but the more you ease everything, the more they ask for an easier way. That'exactly why the roulette was created, to ease tome farming. And people still complain...

Nobody is complaining about the "good" dungeons / trials / guildhests from their roulette.

So, to avoid a potentially 40 minutes dungeon, they'll stay disconnected for 40 minutes ?
Real efficient !

To avoid wasting 40 minutes of their time for an awful reward, they'd rather go play another game or do something else more productive for 40 minutes. Is that something you want as a fan of this game? For people to go play another game? Because that's what punishment does. It forces people away. Why would they deal with getting punished in this game when they can go have fun and be rewarded in another?

Nothing is fun about punishment.

So what ? We should feel sorry for those who don't want to finish a dungeon and just leave you there because the last part is not Xp efficient ? We should feel sorry for those who leave a 24-man raid when a boss doesn't drop the one thing they want or they just lose the roll ?
And what should we say to those penalized by that ? "Deal with it" ?

No, I am saying that rather than bad ideas, empty rhetoric, and demagoguing, that we should look at the problem from a rational and logical perspective rather than one filled with spite.

What collateral damage ? If you take a penalty when purposely withdrawing or staying AFK for so long that the duty automatically kicks you out, how can you end up being a "collateral" damage ?

The collateral damage is the many people who genuinely need to leave a duty. It might be an emergency. It might be an unstable internet connection. There will be innocent people who are impacted by harsher leaver penalties.

Of course they don't, since it costs them nothing apart from a little slap on the wrist. It's like in real life, If all you risk by breaking a rule is "Oh, that's not nice", then you'll just break it all the time.

I hate to make this political but your stance has been proven wrong in reality and in practice time and time again. The war on drugs is not working. The mass incarceration culture is not working. The police state is not working. Meanwhile you have numerous credible studies about the far better impact and effectiveness of positive reinforcement and rehabilitation. But no, you're a bitter, spiteful, petty little man who is more concerned with punishing people than the health of the game.

[Reynhart]

No, I am saying that rather than bad ideas, empty rhetoric, and demagoguing, that we should look at the problem from a rational and logical perspective rather than one filled with spite.

People are jerks, there's your problem.

It might be an emergency.

If you have an emergency, your biggest concern will be "Oh, shoot, I took a penalty from the Duty Finder" ? Seriously ?

It might be an unstable internet connection.

Losing connexion doesn't put you out of a duty. Being kicked doesn't give you any penalty. Have you read what I wrote ?

I hate to make this political but your stance has been proven wrong in reality and in practice time and time again.

Yeah, because video games are just like reality, right ? When was the last time you were banned of real life for making fake money ? When was the last time you were kicked out of the mall for idling too much ?

[Brian_]

People are jerks, there's your problem.

I highly doubt the majority of droppers are doing it just to troll. They're doing it for practical reasons. As such, there is an equally pragmatic solution. And, it's not punishing them.

But you are just proving my point. Your perspective is that these people are jerks so you have to retaliate. That's not how you fix a problem. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, two wrongs don't make a right, etc.

If you have an emergency, your biggest concern will be "Oh, shoot, I took a penalty from the Duty Finder" ? Seriously ?

Losing connexion doesn't put you out of a duty. Being kicked doesn't give you any penalty. Have you read what I wrote ?

The point is that when someone has an emergency, it doesn't need to be some life altering disaster. And, it might not even take 30 minutes to deal with (or however long you're proposing to extend the penalty to). Sometimes I will get a work related phone call. I would rather drop group than force them to wait an indefinite amount of time. Maybe the phone call is 5 minutes. Maybe it turns into a series of phone calls that lasts a few hours. As for the connection issues, sometimes when you zone in you will notice yourself spiking or repeatedly disconnecting. Many will just apologize and drop group so that they can find someone else. Why should that group need to wait to vote kick just to avoid the penalty?

Are you seriously arguing that there is never a genuine situation where a person has to drop group?