This game needs better DPS feedback

[WinterLuna]

If you put me in a group with two dps, with one doing 1500dps and the other doing 800... I'm pretty sure the enmity meter and buff display would be good enough to show me which is which.

Also this.

[Alexftw]

Well... The best way to know your group is doing well in a dungeon is.. The overall time(since saved time means farm tokens/lores faster)

Less than 12min to clear expert = great. Less than 15 min good. Less than 20 average. More than 20 slow.

[MrPresident]

There needs to be some form of tutorial. Much beyond Hall of novice. They can dress it up as some solo content with some minions or mounts as reward for completing or whatever, but I do feel that there needs to be more guidance on how to maximise your job. And that goes for every job nit just dps.

[WinterLuna]

Well... The best way to know your group is doing well in a dungeon is.. The overall time(since saved time means farm tokens/lores faster)

Less than 12min to clear expert = great. Less than 15 min good. Less than 20 average. More than 20 slow.

I'm starting to believe everyone is pretending that any methods of checking to see if you are underperforming don't exist, because people inevitably want a parser and will argue anything against it.

[Ghishlain]

I'm starting to believe everyone is pretending that any methods of checking to see if you are underperforming don't exist, because people inevitably want a parser and will argue anything against it.

I'd argue any method used to gauge someone's DPS outside of a parser is unreliable due to a myriad of circumstances and issues. To take the the Enmity Meter example used earlier, it can show the divide between a underwhelming terrible DPS and an overwhelmingly good DPS but not really useful for any shade of grey in between due to abilities like Quelling Strikes, Elusive Jump, Shadewalker, etc.

[Critical-Limit]

I was out DPS'd by a DRG, and a BLM once. Only by a little. But I got all the commendations undeservingly because Monk can't shed their hate.

[WinterLuna]

To take the the Enmity Meter example used earlier, it can show the divide between a underwhelming terrible DPS and an overwhelmingly good DPS but not really useful for any shade of grey in between due to abilities like Quelling Strikes, Elusive Jump, Shadewalker, etc.

It's obviously not exact but I was using that example in response to the OP. She was talking about players in level 60 duty finder. This isn't a place where people often use enmity reducing skills. My point was that if a player really is that bad, it would show in the aggro table.

We had a monk in our FC who was constantly number 8 on the aggro table. We asked him nicely about his rotation, and he didn't have Fists of Fire on his hotbar, nor was he doing his rotation correctly.

I'm not saying the aggro table replaces a parser. I'm saying it doesn't take a parser to recognise if you are performing badly.

Edit: the OP was talking about players who "don't know how to play." Most people are responding as though she was talking about half decent players who want to improve. My responses are directed towards the fact she is talking about bad players, not the "grey area."

[Alexftw]

It's easy to tell if someone is bellow average. For tanks: Check gear, use enimity lowering skills. If his gear is within 10 ilvls of yours and can't keep agro with you lowering enimity then he's bad. Check pulls - if the healer can always keep him healed and you have two aoe classes yet he doesn't pull over 2 mobs, he's bad or being lazy.

For healers: if he is well geared and can't keep tank alive in 4- mobs pulls and can't dps during bosses then he's either bad or being lazy.

For dps: if they can't do mechanisms and stuff isnt dying in time(assuming tank and healer are normal) then both are bad or one is terrible and other bellow average. (1 good dps is enough to compensate another with 600- dps). If they don't dodge stuff that has to be dodged then they're bad or being lazy.


As for spotting bad players: if they're in an English party and can only swear French.. 99.1% bad players.(every time I had a player swearing in French in df he happened to be terrible at his role somehow, still I've met decent French players aswell, except they didn't swear lol).

[Ghishlain]

It's obviously not exact but I was using that example in response to the OP. She was talking about players in level 60 duty finder. This isn't a place where people often use enmity reducing skills. My point was that if a player really is that bad, it would show in the aggro table.

We had a monk in our FC who was constantly number 8 on the aggro table. We asked him nicely about his rotation, and he didn't have Fists of Fire on his hotbar, nor was he doing his rotation correctly.

I'm not saying the aggro table replaces a parser. I'm saying it doesn't take a parser to recognise if you are performing badly.

Edit: the OP was talking about players who "don't know how to play." Most people are responding as though she was talking about half decent players who want to improve. My responses are directed towards the fact she is talking about bad players, not the "grey area."

We should still encourage something thats better than the enmity metre though to provide us more feed back. If the game told me, similar to who has the highest enmity, who is dealing the most damage to this boss (doesn't necessarily have to be the raw number- just a ranking), then we can see who actually is performing and under performing.

If you saw on this ranking a WAR of equal ilvl out DPSing every single DPS in Midas, would you say all those DPS don't know how to play and performing badly? If you agree they are performing poorly, how would you detect this with the current tools? You unfortunately can't. It's can be argued this is a corner case but it happens far too frequently for my own liking.

...I still want more feed back than Enmity Meter though so I can perform better on AST. lol. (complete tangent to the whole thing)

[Kaurie]

If you put me in a group with two dps, with one doing 1500dps and the other doing 800... I'm pretty sure the enmity meter and buff display would be good enough to show me which is which.

This really depends. In a dungeon where I am talking about me pulling 1500 vs most others pulling 800 - I am using AoE and it is quite possible they are focusing one target - or most of their damage is on one target. That would put their enmity much higher on one target, while mine is higher on the other targets.


Then, for SMN, there is also both Quelling Strikes and your Pet. Your pet does roughly 25% of your damage (nearly 400 of your 1500 damage) on single target add that to quelling strikes - and it is possible that your enmity may be close to the other DPS pulling 800 vs your 1500.

Add to this that it is very unclear how the enmity bars work - especially for a DPS who don't need to concern themselves with it as much as tanks. I imagine a lot of newer players have no idea what it is, or how to read it. The enmity bar could be an ~OK way to determine your DPS if it was made obviously clear how it works at low levels. Further to this, if your tank is holding agro well ahead of everyone else, all you will see is that one DPS is above the other - but not really by how much. That 800 DPS person has no idea if it's 1500 vs 800 or 1500 vs 1499.

It's obviously not exact but I was using that example in response to the OP. She was talking about players in level 60 duty finder. This isn't a place where people often use enmity reducing skills. My point was that if a player really is that bad, it would show in the aggro table.

I think that depends if you are used to grabbing agro. On my SMN - I often pull agro on at least 1 mob per trash pack. So, I pop quelling strikes every time I get the chance - I also try to double it up with Raging Strikes. On a DPS who pulls poor numbers, I could see why they'd assume quelling is not important in Expert though - and that is sort of the point.

I'm not saying the aggro table replaces a parser. I'm saying it doesn't take a parser to recognise if you are performing badly.

The issue is that this is both unreliable and not obvious. That Monk in your story leveled to 60 without realizing basics. This could have been more apparent to him/her at a much earlier level if there was better feedback. The problem is the feedback is not obvious, unclear and unreliable to the point that people level up to 60 with bad habits. It's very hard to break a bad habit once you've formed it.

Edit: the OP was talking about players who "don't know how to play." Most people are responding as though she was talking about half decent players who want to improve. My responses are directed towards the fact she is talking about bad players, not the "grey area."

Again, the Monk in your story could have benefited from better feedback in their leveling area. I think who is 'bad' and who is in the 'grey area' is subjective. From my perspective, pulling under 1k DPS in expert is abysmal. I started pulling 1k+ in dungeons at ilvl 175, we're now 225ish. That's 50 ilvls later and people are pulling 800. It's, frankly, pathetic. That said, it's the median DPS of all DPS I've personally seen in expert. I've probably done ~40ish experts since release (maybe more, maybe less - I did not count). I did most of these as a SCH so we can assume roughly ~75 DPS have queued in with me. Out of 75 DPS, I've seen 3 people above 1000 - which is ilvl 175 numbers - for the run.