This game needs better DPS feedback

[Kaurie]

I think that SSS is a perfectly legitimate way of providing feedback to DPS as to how they are doing. Although, it could be improved. It would be interesting to me to see a scoring system be added to SSS, SABCDE scale for example. This would provide a bit more granularity than you beat it or you didn't. Sure the % remaining when time runs out could give someone some indication of that, but it might be easier to understand for the general populace if they had the scoring scale.

I've never liked damage meters due to their tendency for exclusion rather than improvement. People typically react one of two ways when meters are brought up:

1) Advice is given for improvment, response is: Don't tell me how to play my class
2) No advice is given for improvement, just insults as to how bad someone is doing and they are removed from the group

Neither of these are particularly healthy, happy outcomes. And the rare case is advice is given and accepted graciously...

I agree with those notes on how people often speak; however, this is definitely not exclusive to parser numbers. I see someone with Garuda on Sic doing a knockback and say something- same thing. I see a DPS standing in AoEs and say something, same thing - etc. This is less of a product of parsers and more a product of human nature, people don't like to be told by another human that they are messing up. It is embarrassing. That is why a tool is better suited for it.

For example: A NIN joins DF run of expert, pulls 350 DPS. His co-SMN is pulling 1500+ NIN sees on parser that not only is he pulling nearly 1/5 of the SMN, but he is also pulling less than the tank and the healer. NIN realizes they need to take time to reflect on what they are doing wrong.

Obviously there are thousands of possible outcomes and this was in no way meant to suggest that this is the most likely. I just wrote this out to illustrate my point that parsers can be useful outside of players telling other players to improve - and can easily be used for self improvement. The first step in improving yourself is admitting you have a problem.

I don't really get how this always turns into something complicated or a matter of morality.

If people want to appeal to like the moral values of their religion or something... just remember... Japan is largely a Buddist/shinto country.... No point in waving western religious beliefs of right and wrong over their heads... Thinking the whole world works like the way the "west" thinks is absurd ('murica, hell yeah!' aimrite?).

They will make their own decisions on what they think is right to do. And, that is the way it should be.

If you think about it, most Final Fantasy games are about fighting a highly religious group (if not the church itself) who wants to do thought control and tell the main protagonist how to think and feel. This usually ends in you killing the God they worship in a final boss battle at the end... So yea... different thoughts than the west... proof....lol

SE adding a parser is a pretty black and white feature they have said they want to add... It's not emotionally charged at all. They said they want to do it but it involves completing the add-on system for the game. They have repeatedly pushed this back over and over. Probably because it doesn't sound like a feature that is gonna just draw people in as much as if they just added a new boss battle.

Did I miss something, or where did all this religious talk come from?

[Alexftw]

Well... The best way to know your group is doing well in a dungeon is.. The overall time(since saved time means farm tokens/lores faster)

Less than 12min to clear expert = great. Less than 15 min good. Less than 20 average. More than 20 slow.

[WinterLuna]

Well... The best way to know your group is doing well in a dungeon is.. The overall time(since saved time means farm tokens/lores faster)

Less than 12min to clear expert = great. Less than 15 min good. Less than 20 average. More than 20 slow.

I'm starting to believe everyone is pretending that any methods of checking to see if you are underperforming don't exist, because people inevitably want a parser and will argue anything against it.

[Ghishlain]

I'm starting to believe everyone is pretending that any methods of checking to see if you are underperforming don't exist, because people inevitably want a parser and will argue anything against it.

I'd argue any method used to gauge someone's DPS outside of a parser is unreliable due to a myriad of circumstances and issues. To take the the Enmity Meter example used earlier, it can show the divide between a underwhelming terrible DPS and an overwhelmingly good DPS but not really useful for any shade of grey in between due to abilities like Quelling Strikes, Elusive Jump, Shadewalker, etc.

[WinterLuna]

To take the the Enmity Meter example used earlier, it can show the divide between a underwhelming terrible DPS and an overwhelmingly good DPS but not really useful for any shade of grey in between due to abilities like Quelling Strikes, Elusive Jump, Shadewalker, etc.

It's obviously not exact but I was using that example in response to the OP. She was talking about players in level 60 duty finder. This isn't a place where people often use enmity reducing skills. My point was that if a player really is that bad, it would show in the aggro table.

We had a monk in our FC who was constantly number 8 on the aggro table. We asked him nicely about his rotation, and he didn't have Fists of Fire on his hotbar, nor was he doing his rotation correctly.

I'm not saying the aggro table replaces a parser. I'm saying it doesn't take a parser to recognise if you are performing badly.

Edit: the OP was talking about players who "don't know how to play." Most people are responding as though she was talking about half decent players who want to improve. My responses are directed towards the fact she is talking about bad players, not the "grey area."

[Preypacer]

How to tell if you're doing well (DPS edition):
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?

If you're 4/4 on these, then congratulations! You're playing the game adequately, and no one has any right to tell you otherwise.


If you're not, then you need to work on your own gameplay.

There's so much more to being a good player than putting out good numbers. Putting out good numbers is a good thing, but I would much rather take someone who knows how to avoid AoE, or who plays their class to boost the rest of the group, than someone who's so fixated on their rotation that they die 50% of the time.

Great post/point. The thing is, many gamers these days - particularly in MMOs (in my experience) are obsessed with numbers. It's all about numbers. Everything is numbers.

Based on what I've seen I could well imagine some counter-points to your checklist (which I agree with) would be:
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
- "But they could have died faster if "so and so" was doing at least 500dps, which according to my parser they're not, which means they are not playing their class/role optimally (translated: "not up to my personal arbitrary standards which I'm convinced they are obligated to by virtue of being in a party with me, another player, picked randomly from a cross-server pool of players")

[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
"Yes, but are they using them at the optimal times (translated: When I, or some guide on the internet says they should) thus ensuring the best possible DPS? If not, then they're bads and need to "git gud", or not stay in my DF parties".

[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
The healer or raid leader should not have to explain the fights or what to do. That just wastes everyone's time because they have to take the time to explain something, which means the dungeon can take longer than it should (translated: "longer than I want it to"). You are supposed to watch videos before entering a dungeon so you know exactly what to do, even having never been in there before. If you haven't, then you're a bad and are being carried by everyone else"

[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?
"Yes, but we should have done it faster. According to my parser - aka "God" - such-and-such role was not putting out optimal DPS. They were 50dps short of where they should have been, which means it was taking far too long for us to clear the dungeon. These "bads" need to "git gud" and "learn to play", because I'm tired of carrying them."

And by the by, those quotes are pretty much a mash-up of many, many such responses I've seen from some people for whom the game is all about numbers, and whom believe it should be for everyone else as well.

As for the OP, well, all the tools someone needs to learn and play as well as they'd like are available. It's not as though they're withheld from some players, and only available to others. At the end of the day, it boils down to a simple truth:
"Not everyone takes numbers as seriously as you do, nor are they obligated to because you happen to insist they should".

No one is obligated to meet anyone else's personal standards. It doesn't work that way.

Believe it or not, many people play these games for enjoyment, to relax, to have fun. They aren't concerned about whether their DPS output is "optimal" or whether they need to spend another hour fine-tuning their rotations, for the benefit of someone else's parser numbers. Put simply, all the preaching and derision over them being "bads" is not going to change how they play, because they simply don't care. They're not playing for the same reason as you, and how you think they should be playing is of no concern to them, nor should it be.

Fortunately FFXIV provides a perfectly good tool for people to gather exactly the kind of group you want to. It's called Party Finder.

If you're dead-set on playing with people who believe in playing at the absolute peak of what's possible, then you should seek out and group up with those people. Someone joins your group who isn't up to your requirements, etc? Kick them.

However, if you're going through Duty Finder, well, you have no control nor say over who's in there with you. The convenience of having the game do all the footwork for you means you're not always going to get your ideal group. Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Can't demand everyone else "raise their game" to your personal standard.

[Kaurie]

Great post/point. The thing is, many gamers these days - particularly in MMOs (in my experience) are obsessed with numbers. It's all about numbers. Everything is numbers.


Based on what I've seen I could well imagine some counter-points to your checklist (which I agree with) would be:
[ ] Are things that are supposed to die dying?
- "But they could have died faster if "so and so" was doing at least 500dps, which according to my parser they're not, which means they are not playing their class/role optimally (translated: "not up to my personal arbitrary standards which I'm convinced they are obligated to by virtue of being in a party with me, another player, picked randomly from a cross-server pool of players")

[ ] Are you using your cooldowns when you can and/or when it's appropriate?
"Yes, but are they using them at the optimal times (translated: When I, or some guide on the internet says they should) thus ensuring the best possible DPS? If not, then they're bads and need to "git gud", or not stay in my DF parties".

[ ] Did you avoid all avoidable damage unless the healer/raid leader told you not to?
The healer or raid leader should not have to explain the fights or what to do. That just wastes everyone's time because they have to take the time to explain something, which means the dungeon can take longer than it should (translated: "longer than I want it to"). You are supposed to watch videos before entering a dungeon so you know exactly what to do, even having never been in there before. If you haven't, then you're a bad and are being carried by everyone else"

[ ] Did your group successfully complete the encounter?
"Yes, but we should have done it faster. According to my parser - aka "God" - such-and-such role was not putting out optimal DPS. They were 50dps short of where they should have been, which means it was taking far too long for us to clear the dungeon. These "bads" need to "git gud" and "learn to play", because I'm tired of carrying them."

And by the by, those quotes are pretty much a mash-up of many, many such responses I've seen from some people for whom the game is all about numbers, and whom believe it should be for everyone else as well.

As for the OP, well, all the tools someone needs to learn and play as well as they'd like are available. At the end of the day, it boils down to a simple truth:
"Not everyone takes numbers as seriously as you do, nor are they obligated to because you happen to insist they are".

Believe it or not, many people play these games for enjoyment, to relax, to have fun. They aren't concerned about whether their DPS output is "optimal" or whether they need to spend another hour fine-tuning their rotations, for the gratification of someone else's parser numbers. Put simply, all the preaching and derision over them being "bads" is not going to change how they play, because they simply don't care. They're not playing for the same reason as you, and how you think they should be playing is of no concern to them, nor should it be.

Fortunately FFXIV provides a perfectly good tool for people to gather exactly the kind of group you want to. It's called Party Finder.

If you're dead-set on playing with people who believe in playing at the absolute peak of what's possible, then you should seek out and group up with those people. Someone joins your group who isn't up to your requirements, etc? Kick them.

However, if you're going through Duty Finder, well, you have no control nor say over who's in there with you. The convenience of having the game do all the footwork for you means you're not always going to get your ideal group. Can't have your cake and eat it, too. Can't demand everyone else "raise their game" to your personal standard.

It saddens me that you are so supportive of people playing sub-optimally and selfishly in a team-based cooperative game. In my opinion, that is easily the worst thing with this community at the moment.

[Snugglebutt]

It saddens me that you are so supportive of people playing sub-optimally and selfishly in a team-based cooperative game. In my opinion, that is easily the worst thing with this community at the moment.

The most important thing is clearing the content when not in a training party, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If you cannot accept that then you should stick with statics and not use DF, do content with the people who feel the same way you do instead of trying to force everyone else to play the way you want.

If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people need to rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal a persons rotations are is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done. Show a little respect for others too and not just those who enjoy playing to the same standards or the same way you do.

[Kaurie]

The most important thing is clearing the content, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people should rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done.

I guess for me it is not about the importance of clearing it. It's the importance of working together as a team that I enjoy. If people are playing sub-optimally, it is insulting to the team. It shows they don't care about anyone but themselves, and just want a free ride for their reward. In a team game, I prefer to work with people who work with me to do the best we can do.

Personally, I have a very hard time relating or understanding the mental thought process of players who think otherwise. Generally, I feel I am fairly good at understanding peoples points of view and am a fairly empathetic person, but in this case it's hard for me to fathom.

[whythehate]

The most important thing is clearing the content when not in a training party, not how fast you clear it or whether you were optimal in your rotations. Games are supposed to be fun, not just for you but for all the people present and as long as they get the job done that's all that matters. If you cannot accept that then you should stick with statics and not use DF
If they cannot get the job done then that is the only time people need to rethink or improve so the next time it will be. How fast or how optimal a persons rotations are is for people in statics who all agree to that play style, not DF for example in which the only thing they should be concerned about is actually doing enough to clear it/get it done. Show a little respect for others too and not just those who enjoy playing to the same standards or the same way you do.

Just going to explain this to you.

Last month I decided I would no longer use my main for content below savage, I fancied something different.

I choose drg, I hit the dummies to find out where I was dps wise and redesigned my hotbar (had switched from ps4 to pc so everything gets deleted)

Once I was comfortable with my button positions I checked dps and found myself at 1150 this was what you what say basic dps.

So I asked my friend for advice and searched the forum, after practising each day getting familiar with the opener (advanced drg opener is frigging chaos on a controller) I checked dps again and now I was sitting at 1500 a very nice improvement but I knew there was more things I could do to fully optimise, I began practicing in Alex since ya know mechanics. Each time I was putting out 1.2k+ per run, meanwhile all I see is people far below me.

After 4 weeks of training I'm now sitting comfortable at 1650 dummy dps and have a fairly decent understanding of this job. There's still more improvements to make but this is where it gets to the real min maxing.

When a parser user mentions bad dps, they are no way saying oh shit man you should be doing 1800+ they are pretty much only asking for basic rotation dps

In runs I expect to see at least 1k obviously lower if the fight is extremely mechanic oreitatated or if you are new.

The only way you can fall below that number is:
A you're pretty much Netflix playing, pressing a button every 5 seconds or something
B having serious rotation problems I.e pressing 3 2 1 instead of 1 2 3
C dieing to mechanics

Last night I queued for Alex nm to cap lore

I did 4 runs, in each run only 1-2 dps above 1k (including myself) the rest 800-300

500-600 dps by the way is what we could do at level 50....

A blm 1 run did 297, that's just...trash got his drop too