Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Kaurie]

I'm a bit late but I want to answer these claims:

The average is irrelevant and crits are unreliable. More often that not, they are wasted in the sense that they were not needed because you already planned to mitigate some incoming damage without a crit Adlo.
Regular Nocturnal Aspected Benefics have a stronger shield than Adlo, and are instant cast. Saying that "Adlo is better" because of crits, isn't relevant.

I strongly disagree. If I crit an adlo on a tank, now I know they have a solid 10k+ shield and I can swap to cleric and get some DPS in. Otherwise, I'll be prepping up to adlo again. Crits are definitely not irrelevant and what make Adlo as godly as it is. Without crit and without fairy, adlo would be fairly lack luster.

Of course it is. But why are you comparing the two? One is a 2mn cooldown used only when you'd need to mitigate moderate to high raid damage, the other is a bread and butter raid mitigation AoE on GCD. The setup and uses are completly different. No Noct.AST would only use Aspected Helios in order to mitigate this kind of damage. They'd use another cooldown with it, which is easier to do since they're usually on a shorter timer than SCH cooldowns. So, really, comparing the two is pointless.

It isn't pointless, because AST has nothing to compete with that kind of mitigation. It being on a 2 minute timer is fine, as all encounters seem to be timed around spreading that sort of damage over 2-3 minute intervals. Again, this is due to the way Square has decided to create encounters. If they weren't designed this way, it'd be a different story.

I have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.
- Supervirus is a stat reduction, which doesn't equate raw mitigation. Disable is raw mitigation, meaning that it's 10% flat, while Supervirus is more like 7-9% (and doesn't work on darkness damage).
- Sacred Soil is 10% mitigation and cost an Aetherflow stack. Collective Unconscious is 10% mititagion and add a strong regen.
- Succor has a 150 potency shield, Nocturnal Aspected Helios has a 157.5 potency shield.

Supervirus will prevent much more damage than Disable and has a slightly longer duration (reducing more attacks as well as more %). Yes, Disable reduces darkness damage which is great for reducing the damage from the Cochma in Seph EX - though, that reduction is rarely if ever required there. I don't know of any other major aoe hits that Disable exceeds Supervirus though. Sacred Soil is instant and allows the scholar to continue casting AND the pet to continue casting - you can whispering dawn, fey cov, sacred soil and DPS at the same time which is significantly better than collective unconcious in the same situation.

If anything, of the two sets of mitigation abilities and cooldowns you're comparing here, the AST one is slightly stronger due to Disable being better, A.Helios having a very small potency bonus and CU applying a regen.

Again, disable is actually worse - usually. The fact that CU keeps you from doing other actions makes it worse, and the small potency bonus *1.3 shields does make that aspected helios nicer.

Also, I have no idea where you 5% thing comes from.

I believe that is the 5% additional damage that Supervirus prevents over Disable

People seems to compare the two jobs like they'd use the same amount of cooldown at the same time, without considering that the overall liberty of cooldown usage is completly different. You can't just say SCH X skill is better than AST Y, because chances are that they are used completly differently ingame, making the "on paper" maths completly pointless.

This is precisely what you are doing except in reverse.

Also on that last note and the whole supervirus + disable thing, there is also other mitigation such as E4E. That 10% damage reduction is pretty significant and stacks up with virus etc.

[Kaurie]

i think the best way to look at it for the 3 healers is, they all can do some party buffs, some mitigation and some healing. AST is king of party buffs, SCH is king of mitigation and WHM is king of healing - it doesn't mean the other 2 cannot do all 3, but it just means each healer has it's own specialty (actually, I am struggling to think of any party buffs WHM brings)

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I have absolutly no clue what you're talking about.

It's been tried and tested before that stat reduction in percentages translates into a percentage less damage dealt, assuming enemies use the same formula like the players. Ergo: -15% str, dex, int and mnd reduces physical and magical (healing) by roughly 15%. Also, disable can't be considered "flat mitigation" if Virus isn't. It reduces action potency by 10%. Then there's the thing that CU renders you immobile/unable to perform actions for it's uptime where sacred soil does not. But let's not go there.

[HPDelron]

It's been tried and tested before that stat reduction in percentages translates into a percentage less damage dealt, assuming enemies use the same formula like the players. Ergo: -15% str, dex, int and mnd reduces physical and magical (healing) by roughly 15%. Also, disable can't be considered "flat mitigation" if Virus isn't. It reduces action potency by 10%. Then there's the thing that CU renders you immobile/unable to perform actions for it's uptime where sacred soil does not. But let's not go there.

What we can say is that disable and virus play nice with each other. In that using Virus locks you out of additional Vriuses, but not disable. Meaning that your maximum uptime for mitigation debuffs is greater when mixing the two, or you can stack them for more peak mitigation. This is probably the more relevant factor to consider for composition than which of the two is stronger.

It could be argued this creates a "Pro" for AST in that their abilities compliment and compound with those of a SCH better than do WHMs or another SCH. If we want to be really silly and run with edge case mitigation you can have Bole + Virus + Disable + Sacred Soil + CU + Galvanize + Stone Skin out of an AST/SCH combo and you can't really get anything else comparable out of any other two healer setup.

[Kaurie]

What we can say is that disable and virus play nice with each other. In that using Virus locks you out of additional Vriuses, but not disable. Meaning that your maximum uptime for mitigation debuffs is greater when mixing the two, or you can stack them for more peak mitigation. This is probably the more relevant factor to consider for composition than which of the two is stronger.

Definitely. In my static we run Diurnal AST + SCH(me) and we have a SMN. That means we can have 2 superviruses with a disable in between.

If we want to be really silly and run with edge case mitigation you can have Bole + Virus + Disable + Sacred Soil + CU + Galvanize + Stone Skin out of an AST/SCH combo and you can't really get anything else comparable out of any other two healer setup.

What is kind of sad is that Fey Illum + Defiance + Adlo/crit + Deploy would mitigate more than bole/virus/disable/sacred soil/cu/succor/stone skin :\

[HPDelron]

Definitely. In my static we run Diurnal AST + SCH(me) and we have a SMN. That means we can have 2 superviruses with a disable in between.

What is kind of sad is that Fey Illum + Defiance + Adlo/crit + Deploy would mitigate more than bole/virus/disable/sacred soil/cu/succor/stone skin :\

Except, those aren't mutually exclusive. It's only really meaningful to talk about which does more when you have to choose between the two things. Fey Illum + Defiance + Aldo Crit is all to produce a big Galvanize effect. Which as we see slots comfortably into the overall picture and since Galvanize stays up anything that reduces the damage going into the shields leaves more of that big, beefy safety barrier for later.

I know we're already off into stupid theoretical maximums with no real application but heck, why not throw in mantra & dissipation while we're at it for good measure?

[Kaurie]

Except, those aren't mutually exclusive. It's only really meaningful to talk about which does more when you have to choose between the two things. Fey Illum + Defiance + Aldo Crit is all to produce a big Galvanize effect. Which as we see slots comfortably into the overall picture and since Galvanize stays up anything that reduces the damage going into the shields leaves more of that big, beefy safety barrier for later.

I know we're already off into stupid theoretical maximums with no real application but heck, why not throw in mantra & dissipation while we're at it for good measure?

I didn't mean it as a mutually exclusive, or a way of pointing out how those other skills are not good (they're all useful and we use them all). I more meant that Adlo + Deploy is OP and I am surprised they allow people to throw 13k+ shields on an entire group.

Personally, I wouldn't use Dissipation for an adlo deploy - I only use Dissipation under 2 situations 1. no healing will be required for a bit and 2. I need to push DPS. We could definitely add more healing buffs, but that just moves away from the point I was making :P

[DarkmoonVael]

What is meant by Mega HoT? Is that just Synastry + Aspected Helios or Divine Seal + Medica II? There is also Rouse + Whispering Dawn, which I believe is actually the highest of the 3 for potency during it's duration, but comes with a 60s cooldown.

With an AST in Diurnal its Synastry, A.Ben, A.Helios, Collective unconsiousness then all the HoTs time dilated.

WHM is divine seal, regen, medica II and assylum (the regen bubble, is that the right name for it?).

Edit: thats what i am guessing they are talking about.

[Kaurie]

With an AST in Diurnal its Synastry, A.Ben, A.Helios, Collective unconsiousness then all the HoTs time dilated.

WHM is divine seal, regen, medica II and assylum (the regen bubble, is that the right name for it?).

Edit: thats what i am guessing they are talking about.

Ah thanks, I am curious how those compare with Rouse + Whispering Dawn. I guess the specific with what you are saying is it sounds very targeted on 1 person (the tank) with regen / a.ben

[Kelya]

I am curious how those compare with Rouse + Whispering Dawn. I guess the specific with what you are saying is it sounds very targeted on 1 person (the tank) with regen / a.ben

WHM
DS (+30% potency) + Regen + Med2 + Asylum
195+65+100 potency / tick
1365+650+800 total potency

Single target : 360 potency / tick
AOE : 165 potency / tick

Total single target : 2815 potency over 30s....... 3815 over 45s (Regen + Med2 reapplied to compare with the 45s of AST HOTs) ....... 2520 over 21s (stopped at 21s to compare with the 21s of SCH HOT)
Total AOE : 1450 potency over 30s....... 1700 over 45s....... 1155 over 21s


AST
Synastry (+20% potency) + AB + AH + CU + Time Dilation (+15s)
168+48+150 potency / tick
1848+720+1500 total potency

Single target : 366 potency / tick
AOE : 198 potency / tick

Total single target : 4068 potency over 45s....... 3660 over 30s (stopped at 30s to compare with the 30s of WHM HOTs)....... 2562 over 21s
Total AOE : 2220 over 45s.......1980 over 30s....... 1386 over 21s

SCH
Rouse (+40% potency) + Whispering

Single target / AOE : 93,33 potency / tick

Total single target / AOE : 653,33 potency over 21s


I've done that quickly so the maths might be wrong haha

Edit : If you take in account the fairy it should be around the same (a bit less or more) as WHM/AST over 21s for single target