Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Mimilu]

Maybe all of this would be better said in an AST thread and not a thread comparing the three healer...? >w>

[Kaurie]

i think the best way to look at it for the 3 healers is, they all can do some party buffs, some mitigation and some healing. AST is king of party buffs, SCH is king of mitigation and WHM is king of healing - it doesn't mean the other 2 cannot do all 3, but it just means each healer has it's own specialty (actually, I am struggling to think of any party buffs WHM brings)

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

With the 200 potency from Eos then you're looking at 2940 potency over 21s of single target healing so it's a bit more than AST/WHM for this duration.
DS Med2 < Rouse Whispering as it's 455 potency vs 980 over 21s respectively. I don't know what's confusing except the few numbers I've put just to show from where I got my final results ^^

980 potency? Where'd you get that from? :P

Fairy potency doesn't reflect on our own potency values. Embrace has half the recovery value of Physick and Whispering Dawn has a third of Embrace - Which is a no brainer as it's 300 potency vs 100 potency.
With this in mind and if we were to convert fairy potency into player potency (half a physick), Embrace is at 200 potency and Whispering Dawn at 66.67 potency/tick or 466.67 potency over 21 seconds. If you'd include Rouse it's 93.33 potency/tick or 653.33 potency over 21 seconds.
I find it interesting how you're not including the upfront healing Medica II provides, however. If you'd include this, the potencies would be:
Medica II + Divine Seal - 715.00 potency over 21 seconds (or 910.00 potency for it's full duration and effect)
Whispering Dawn + Rouse - 653.33 potency over 21 seconds
Whispdering Dawn + Rouse + Fey Illumination - 784.00 potency over 21 seconds*

*inb4 how: Like DPS buffs, healing buffs are also multiplicative

[Kelya]

980 potency? Where'd you get that from? :P

Embrace is at 200 potency and Whispering Dawn at 66.67 potency/tick or 466.67 potency over 21 seconds. If you'd include Rouse it's 93.33 potency/tick or 653.33 potency over 21 seconds.
I find it interesting how you're not including the upfront healing Medica II provides, however.

Thank you, I wasn't sure about fairy Embrace potency but I forgot it would be the same issue with Whispering Dawn so it's indeed a bit lower overall but the final result should be around the same as WHM/AST still.

I didn't include the upfront healing of Med2/AH as I assumed it would be mainly overhealing in the case of putting it just for the sake of having another regen on the tank / during dungeons depending on how you sort the pulls but for raid contents obviously you have less chances for the upfront healing to be lost. Plus I was purely focusing on the HOTS as it was the main subject.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

Eh, assize doubles as MP source as well as MP conserver. It has the same base healing potential as a Medica and would save you as much mp when used as a medica. Otherwise use it as an MP source that scales with max MP pool as well.

If it's "reliability", don't rely on cards as an MP source. And while there are situations where it is required, astrologians carding themselves beats the purpose of bringing an astrologian in the first place.

[Powe]

To Lyrica_Ashtine :I put cards second because its not as reliable, but is still better than waiting for a CD you have a 1/6 to 1/5 chance of pulling a ewer card

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

snip

For starters: who in the right mind would want to put up an AoE HoT when no damage has been inflicted yet. That means it's done before or during a pull, either are bad practice. So why wouldn't the application of mid combat be considered? Which is also an application that would happen far more often than pre-/mid pull applications.

If you'd consider the front-loaded healing as overheal, why isn't the first tick or two considered overheal? Or even more for whispering dawn if adloquium is in effect.

Leaving out information creates a skewed image

[winsock]

WHM has higher potential than SCH, but lacks the ability to sustain that potential for long term.

Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?

WHM has higher potential than SCH, but lacks the ability to sustain that potential for long term. What helps SCH is the fact they have a multitude of DoTs that are extraordinarily efficient in the Potency per MP category. The fairy also helps with their healing as well as the fact their best healing tools are tied to a renewable resource that also doesn't consume MP.

IMO the faerie, support kit, insta heals, and the fact that WHM is better suited to be the raw healer, are the major components that put SCH on DPS duty.

WHM is really good at doing 1 thing at a time. If it's healing, its DPS tanks. If it's dpsing, its healing tanks.

SCH isn't impacted as harshly as WHM. If it's dpsing, that faerie is still tickin. SCH also has access to many skills that don't have penalties while CS is up. When SCH switches to heals, not only do the dots keep ticking, but it's got lustrate and indomitability, which are arguably the best insta-heals in the game, rdy to go at a moment's notice. It's amazing in that slot, but not because of superior deeps.

SCH is awesome for the job because it's more flexible, and because it lets the WHM direct most/all of its efforts into 1 thing.

[Ghishlain]

I think I'll preface this response by saying I feel you're being particularly argumentative about my posts and comment that I feel that no matter how I respond, you'll find a different detail to nitpick. But here I go to attempt to respond.

Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?

I will also preface this particular response to indicate that I have enough knowledge of the DPS and tank classes to gauge what buffs to give as an AST when cards are drawn but not the intimate knowledge and comparisons some players have in their "career choice".

I'll start with me redefining what I mean by sustain after giving the day to think about. In my opinion and thoughts, sustained DPS means DPS that's consistent and doesn't fluctuate too much. SCH, MNK, and SMN would all fall into this category as their kits emphasize this. They don't spike as often as the other jobs but can maintain good and consistent output. NIN can sorta fall into this category too with more readily available spikes via Ninjutsus.

Now, if you were to look at the potential output of the jobs, MNK by design is able to output a higher DPS level than SMN as per S-E's SSS DPS checks. If I were to answer your query above, I would say just this, MNK has higher potential DPS out of the jobs who's kit embody a sustained and consistent damage. Which I know doesn't answer your question but at the same time, to put bluntly, your question makes no sense to me either.

In terms of the context to the comment I made on the 2nd page regarding "highest sustained DPS", you can combine my thoughts about the sustained DPS I mentioned above with the fact SCHs don't consume MP any where as readily as their AST or WHM counterparts. This is because SCH's best healing abilities are either free (fairy) or tied to a resource that is renewed every minute (Aetherflow). Thus, over the course of a long fight, WHM and AST will have far less resources to consume for their DPS compared to SCH.

If resources were of no issue, then yes I would say WHM and AST DPS > SCH DPS. But WHM and AST cannot maintain that level of DPS in most high-tier scenarios without dramatically hampering their healing duties. Therefore I stand by my comment that SCH has the highest sustained DPS of the three healers.

So, what would your definition of "sustain" be? Because I certainly don't understand your context of "sustain" in the way you wrote it in your comment.

======

Now, about the second half of your post, I will have to disagree with a lot of comments made here and I'll just do it one piece at a time.

IMO the faerie, support kit, insta heals, and the fact that WHM is better suited to be the raw healer, are the major components that put SCH on DPS duty.

I agree with most of this comment (more about my disagreements later).

WHM is really good at doing 1 thing at a time. If it's healing, its DPS tanks. If it's dpsing, its healing tanks.

If you're taking it from a literal game mechanic sense, this is true. A WHM is either healing or DPSing.

However, consider it from a different context.

What allows the SCH flexibility is the fact they have a Fairy that assists in their healing duty. You can basically say the Fairy is a targetable HoT (it casts every three seconds and has a similar potency level to most HoTs in the game). While a WHM literally has to spend their GCDs either healing or DPSing, it doesn't mean they aren't healing while they DPS or they aren't DPSing while they heal.

Regen provides healing over time similar to the Fairy at the cost of one GCD. The WHM can be DPSing while Regen is ticking, allowing it to perform both duties at once. In fact, Regen + Asylum (also on GCD) provides more healing / tick than SCH fairy will.

Likewise, similar to SCHs, WHM can provide DPS while healing in the form of their three DoTs. Accuracy issues aside, this isn't much different than how SCHs would place DoTs on their target then shift back to healing while their DoTs do their work.

SCHs may have more advantages in the multi-task department due to the GCD-free Fairy, but conceptually WHM and SCH would use similar tactics to optimize their HPS and DPS output.

SCH isn't impacted as harshly as WHM. If it's dpsing, that faerie is still tickin.

See comment about Regen (and Asylum / Medica II if desired) above regarding this. WHM loses a GCD, yes, but it's not a harsh impact to their overall play.

SCH also has access to many skills that don't have penalties while CS is up.

WHM has the only heal in the game that actually heals while in Cleric Stance - Benediction. SCH gets Sacred Soil, Eye for an Eye, Supervirus, and Stoneskin (if CC'd). WHM gets Stoneskin, Benediction, Eye for an Eye (if CC'd), and Virus (if CC'd).

All of those abilities outside of Benediction are mitigation tools and not actual healing tools. If you were to argue healing in CS, WHM wins hands down in the fact they have Benediction.

I'm actually not sure what this comment is trying to say aside from the fact "we can do stuff that helps our healing role while in CS that aren't penalized" but those abilities tend to be minimal impact. If you virus a tank / raid buster, you're still going to need to drop CS to heal afterwards anyway.

When SCH switches to heals, not only do the dots keep ticking, but it's got lustrate and indomitability, which are arguably the best insta-heals in the game, rdy to go at a moment's notice.

WHM also gets the same "DoT ticking" benefit as SCH does. WHM also gets Tetragrammaton and Assize though, yes, you can make a case that the cooldowns on these abilities do hamper their desirability.

It's funny because I would argue Essential Dignity being the best single target insta-heal in the game due to 40s CD and having a scaling potency that can exceed Lustrate / Tetragrammaton.

Will not argue Indomitability is the best AoE heal in the game though. But it certainly doesn't mean WHM doesn't have their own equals either.

It's amazing in that slot, but not because of superior deeps.

So... when did I ever mention that SCH is amazing in the off-heal slot only because of their DPS? If you believe I implied that then you're taking my comment regarding sustained DPS well out of context.

SCH is awesome for the job because it's more flexible, and because it lets the WHM direct most/all of its efforts into 1 thing.

Yes, I would agree that SCH has the most healing flexibility thanks to their kit and their options. It is how the kit was designed after all.

[winsock]

I think I'll preface this response by saying I feel you're being particularly argumentative about my posts and comment that I feel that no matter how I respond, you'll find a different detail to nitpick. But here I go to attempt to respond.
...
Now, about the second half of your post, I will have to disagree with a lot of comments made here and I'll just do it one piece at a time.

You nearly split my post into 8 segments...
most of them, individual sentences....
and call me nitpicky... lol

You stated:
"[SCH]+Highest sustained DPS of the three"
Which is false.

Kinda like how I said Gravity is lvl 60 earlier. It was false.

So, what would your definition of "sustain" be?

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

...[snipped book about switching back and forth]...

I think we both agree that SCH has better flexibility.
Breaking down the actual differences might be a fun discussion at some point though!