Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

...This is not what sustained DPS is

If you did 1000 dps in the first 30 seconds and 0 dps on the next 30 seconds, you average at 500 dps. But you completely dropped your damage on the last half. How would this kind of damage contribution be considered "sustained"? Even if you throw in the "rotation gimmick", we're healers: What rotation?!. We set up some DoTs and we're done and if we have free time, we use filler spells.

[winsock]

...This is not what sustained DPS is

If you did 1000 dps in the first 30 seconds and 0 dps on the next 30 seconds, you average at 500 dps. But you completely dropped your damage on the last half. How would this kind of damage contribution be considered "sustained"? Even if you throw in the "rotation gimmick", we're healers: What rotation?!. We set up some DoTs and we're done and if we have free time, we use filler spells.

This is a common MMO thing. Your sustain is your average, your burst are your peaks throughout the average

In a general class comparison of sustained dps, you compare the dps from the rotation.
MNK sustain is greater than DRG sustain, even if that's not true for x particular fight cause the back positional isnt open for y reason, or you just stand around and dont dps. Again, we're talking about generic comparisons

And yes, healers have dps rotations

[Ghishlain]

You nearly split my post into 8 segments...
most of them, individual sentences....
and call me nitpicky... lol

No, I responded to your entire post in piecemeal fashion since there were enough individual and different comments/points you were making to respond in such a fashion.

You were taking one point out of a thirty-two point list I created of pros and cons.

You stated:
"[SCH]+Highest sustained DPS of the three"
Which is false.

Kinda like how I said Gravity is lvl 60 earlier. It was false.

Would you prefer I reword that line "Highest sustained DPS in high-tier practical application of the three"? Because at this moment you are arguing a semantic of the definition of "sustained DPS". I could also reword it to be "Highest consistent DPS of the three" if that's suitable too.

With that being said, I don't think many people would argue SCH has a better sustained DPS in practical application versus WHM. WHM does offer better potential in shorter fights like Faust / Hummelfaust in A5S and the gauntlet style fights in A6S, but otherwise SCH pretty much over powers WHM DPS by at least 10% at the highest tier of play (more when you start getting lower in the skill chain).

I'll say this though.

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

You are technically not wrong about this. But I would think you would have the sense to understand the context I was referring too.

When I asked six of my MMO friends how they would define "Sustained DPS", five of them responded with some variation of "A DPS that has consistent output throughout the fight". The sixth said that and also mentioned how it could be the average DPS of the fight because a Sustained DPS' average doesn't sway too far from that line. Which I agree with.

In other words, we're both right. I'll leave it at that.

Breaking down the actual differences might be a fun discussion at some point though!

I'm not sure if I want to get into this discussion at the very moment >>; There's a lot of context to consider and on top of that each kit is situationally better pending on the fight, party composition, and party skill level.

Let alone the fact we seem to disagree far too much on petty semantics since we seem have gone through different cultures of MMOs leading to the massive difference in opinion and semantics we already have to begin with. I've personally never heard of average DPS refereed to as sustained DPS. Only as it is written - average.

It would probably be terrible for us to dissect kits because of the above. lol.. You might have more luck with someone else though.

[Kaurie]

Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?

I am not 100% sure if this is true? I mean it varies depending on a lot of stuff. That said MNK has the highest sustained DPS according to all FFLogs. Summoner can get serious MP problems (more persistent in 2.4/2.5 than in heavensward). If you have a 10 min fight and the MNK runs out of TP and has 1900 DPS from 1-5 minutes and 300 DPS from 5-10 minutes resulting in a DPS of 1100 and the Summoner has a DPS Of 1500 for the first 5 minutes and 1500 for the 2nd 5 minutes with an average of 1500, then yes - the summoner has better sustained DPS where the Monk had stronger burst. That said, it really isn't the case. I don't play Monk, so I cannot elaborate more on that.

In terms of SCH and WHM, that is the case. WHM will run out of MP after 5 minutes of pure DPSing whereas the SCH will not (5 minutes is arbitrary here, I haven't tested exactly when WHM will run out of MP). So in a short duration, such as the 3 minute SSS, WHM will win out. In longer fights, where MP is a limiting factor, SCH wins out -> better sustained.

[winsock]

snip

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.


One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

[Rawrz]

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.


One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

That word sustained though o-o Kind of implies that as X approaches infinity, one DPS has the highest at infinite. MP is a real crutch. If you're bringing a WHM to 100% DPS, then you aren't going to be having as good of a time as someone who brought a real DPS. Selene can heal over 30% [being conservative, Ive had allot of fights where I've main healed (Total Embrace heals>Their total heals) with just Selene compared to the other healer], so the SCH really doesn't need to drop Cleric Stance to help. Burst fights like SSS really can get your mana down on a WHM, but you EASILY hit numbers higher than an SCH at that time. After those 3 minutes of spamming, youll be scraping your MP reserves even with using Assize and Shroud to their full potential, where as a Scholar will be near 100%. How you should list WHM Dps strength and SCH's DPS strength is:

WHM: Highest AOE and Single Target BURST DPS. (AOE: Aero III, Pom + Holy + ASSIZE DX.Single:Aero III, Aero II, Aero, (Assize, Fluid Aura, Pom Pick 2) Stone III
SCH: Highest Sustained and Mana Nuetral DPS. Most Capable of healing contributions while DPSing. (Super Virus, Embrace/Rouse, Possibility of consecutively weaved Lustrates/Indoms without impacting DPS)

If say during A6 when the 5 mirages sit there, and there were MASSIVE damage spikes, I would main heal that as the SCH to let the WHM push our DPS. The WHM can easily shred my DoT based damage in the amount of time her aoes allow us to kill them, because that is a WHMs strength. Front Loaded burst.

[Kaurie]

The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

No, you should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under SCH and "Highest Burst DPS" under WHM. That is because scholar has the highest sustained DPS and WHM has the highest burst DPS.

On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.

It is mostly true, it just isn't true in very short fights. Even then, it's pretty close.

One more example:
if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.

I feel you are confused on the definition of sustained.

Sustained: continuing for an extended period or without interruption.

Black Mage definitely has better sustained DPS, as it has infinite MP. That said, SMN can sustain damage for quite a long time. The difference between these two is not as drastic as WHM/SCH in terms of sustained. It also matters for BLM/SMN if you are referring to AoE or single target.

[winsock]

Sustained: continuing for an extended period or without interruption.

Pointing out that 0 MP is an interruption

[Anienai]

Astro = Fun
Sch = Fun
WHM = Boring as ----

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

but is still better than waiting for a CD

assize is guaranteed 10% mp recovered plus one and a half stone III worth of mp or 1 Medica worth of mp. And have you forgotten that draw is an ability with CD time as well?

I'm not even going to bother calculating the average on that. Point is, you said that white mage MP recovery is unreliable, but somehow cards at the mercy of RNG is more reliable?