Recover HP/MP while standing still, out of battle, and enmity zeroed

[Viridiana]

I was being sarcastic but I'm glad you posted that. Actually in WoW there is now "in-combat" regen, which is something like 1/3 of your other mana regen rate. You can adjust it with equipment and talents.

I'm guessing you didn't notice my response to NoctisUmbra. You're proposing that there is programming in the new patch to determine when you have been idle in incurring enmity. This is quite a leap. What we know of the enmity system is that it is accumulative, meaning values don't drop off and continue to accumulate for the duration of the fight. When you incur a high level of enmity the only way for it to go "down" is for someone else to go higher than you. So if you understand what I am saying there you will understand why I don't think there is a basis for thinking the game "keeps track" of how long it's been since you accumulated enmity during a fight.

In that last case, most healers don't even know what those abilities are. There are a lot of players that are very casual, especially considering the state of the game.



I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

When I was still playing, there was no "default" regen within the five second rule, unless you had said gear or talents. May've changed since then, but whatever. . .

I saw your response to Noc, but I don't think it's. . . correct? Not quite sure what word to use there. I know that the timer used to exist, and it might still actually exist. For all we know, all they did was set the "Lower enmity by this value" number to 0. There'd be no way to tell the difference between that and a complete revamp to the system without seeing the actual coding. I'm not saying that's definitely how they did it, but I could easily see them re-purposing that function for this, even if it means re-introducing it.

Even if you find seven healers who know nothing about tanking, they'll notice real fast when the boss turns around and eats them, again and again, because the tank can't hold aggro. Or when the tank can't stay alive. Or when efforts to keep the tank alive result in the tank being the only one left alive. . .

Okay, edits:

I'm really not exaggerating! Do you not believe that parties were formed with 5 healers based on healing 1 tank? Do a forum search for GLA CON ARC Darkhold and read what you find. I know it can be done with less healers and skilled players.. but we are not discussing that are we?

You're saying that 4-5 healers was determined within hours of people getting there. This video was uploaded 3 days after the patch went live. It shows three healers, four archers, and a gladiator tank. You can't even really argue that this was a result of skill (no offense to those involved in the making of the video), because there's so much this group could have done better. Not even counting that they could have triggered drops on purpose, they never cast Stoneskin on the tank after the pull (from what I saw, anyway). They basically got through the fight because they had a resilient tank and a little bit of MP management. Heck, they even spent several hundred MP healing their DPS.

Not bashing the guys that made this video, but if they can take 3 healers in and heal not only the tank but also the DPS, with only one piece of dungeon gear among them (from what I can tell), without even doing everything they can to manage MP, then I have to wonder wth people were doing with 5 mages standing there. . .

[Chardrizard]

I don't want you to think I somehow condone taking 4-5 healers or even think that is it rational. It's irrational, but it's what masses of players did because of the game design change. My only point is how game design affected that particular player behavior.

4-5 healers in the run you pointed out earlier wasnt to cure 1 tank, it was to nuke and participate in BR, they were invited as long-range-DPS. Yes, i agree this has affected player behavior in a way or another (long range dps favor), but imo reducing MP cost again doesn't help this cause, other than making it easier.

It definitely doesn't help any of bad close range dps (the masses we're talking about) because mages will incurs enmity from curing them so much.

[Neptune]

*Editing my post in response to your edit. Don't respond yet. :P*

lol.. ok.

4-5 healers in the run you pointed out earlier wasnt to cure 1 tank, it was to nuke and participate in BR, they were invited as long-range-DPS. Yes, i agree this has affected player behavior in a way or another (long range dps favor), but imo reducing MP cost again doesn't help this cause, other than making it easier.

It definitely doesn't help any of bad close range dps (the masses we're talking about) because mages will incurs enmity from curing them so much.

Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

[Chardrizard]

Oh, I have been talking about 4-5 this whole time, not from your video. It's just the general number that the community formed a consensus on within hours of the patch going up. Well, reducing the MP cost would make it easier, but it would ALSO allow more people to experience the content. That's really a moot point though because most people have stopped trying to beat Darkhold.

I see your point but i still don't see how it would help getting those close-range DPS an invites. but, i will cut SE some slack because it is FFXIV's first real raid. Judging from the ifrit trailer, it doesn't seems to favor any class. It has long range directional, random mineblast, and huge range AoE that hits everyone, maybe that is better counter-measure for this issue ?

[Rinsui]

I think Neptune is a whiny weiner, but I also agree that standing around wasting time does not exactly sound thrilling.

I understand they have to put a limit on how much can be regenerated during a battle, but between fights "roaming healing" as we had it now was a huge step into the right direction.

That way, you always had the feeling that running to the next mob wasn't just a waste of time, but "a meaningful action in itself". I wonder why they would drop that - and blame bad wording for some sort of misunderstanding.

P.S.: The only way to get melee characters more invites is making sure that
a) Melee DPS >> all sorts of ranged DPS (an Axe hurts more than an arrow)
b) Bosses have a permanent auto-regen that has to be overcome by higher DPS.

[Viridiana]

I think Neptune is a whiny weiner, but I also agree that standing around wasting time does not exactly sound thrilling.

I understand they have to put a limit on how much can be regenerated during a battle, but between fights "roaming healing" as we had it now was a huge step into the right direction.

That way, you always had the feeling that running to the next mob wasn't just a waste of time, but "a meaningful action in itself". I wonder why they would drop that - and blame bad wording for some sort of misunderstanding.

P.S.: The only way to get melee characters more invites is making sure that
a) Melee DPS >> all sorts of ranged DPS (an Axe hurts more than an arrow)
b) Bosses have a permanent auto-regen that has to be overcome by higher DPS.

I do wish we could keep the roaming healing, as you put it. On the other hand, maybe they couldn't get it to mesh quite right with passive casting. Who knows? Would I like to know the reason? Sure, as a matter of curiosity.

As to getting more invites, I don't want more, I want balanced. There are definitely ways to encourage this with encounter mechanics. Thinking I might start a thread about it. . .

[Jinko]

There is an EASY solution.

Mana regen whilst stationary - 100% (+10 for every 10 seconds)
Mana regen out of battle (whilst moving) - 80%
Mana regen during battle - 5%

SE need to make consumables more important in this game such as potions and food.

Of course bard may have an mp regen spell so perhaps they are making prior changes

Based on previous use, there are really two ways to interpret "incurring enmity:"

1. You perform an action that increases your enmity value.
2. You have a target's attention. (blinking red)

Not really, it could be a bad translation and could actually mean you can't regen at all whilst in battle.
I won't be surprised if this is the case.

Every party member incurs some kind of enmity even a small amount the moment the enemy is engaged.

I've not run Darkhold with more than 3 healers, and the third is only for speed. I can hardly fathom needing a 4th (let alone 5th??) mage to tank heal. It is clear that whatever is going on these groups are doing something seriously, seriously wrong, and should not be succeeding at all. That's why this is an encounter design issue. You should not be able to do everything wrong and still win; that's poor design. The solution is to prevent people from winning this way by removing the "stack a ton of healing" loophole in the encounter design. You suggest doing exactly the opposite by making it vastly more convenient for them to win this way, while at the same time trivializing this and future content for everyone else.

I feel this is less a thing regarding healing and more about the lack of challenge the trash provide, the majority of speed runs are just training mobs to a point where you can despawn them, this removes much of the challenge of even getting to a boss, they need to throw some mini bosses in these dungeons. (make it so that you have to kill mini boss A,B and C before the main ones even spawn)

Just look at a raid in WoW, mages get MP5/sec, access to potions and have mana gaining cooldowns and the fights (and even the trash) are many times more difficult.

SE have a long way to go before they master balancing in this game.

Okay, I'm going to use WoW as an example. In WoW, you can't (by default, unless it's changed since I quit) regain MP while casting. However, once you stop casting for five seconds, your natural regeneration kicks in again.

This hasn't been the the case in WoW for a long time, they have always had in battle and out of battle mana regen, if you are in battle you get a fraction of the mana regen you normally would, casting does not effect it anymore.

I think its something like 5% or base mana regen whilst in battle.

[Renshi]

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

[Jinko]

Man... Guys, chill out and discover new strategies for your battles, that's what the Dev team would see us to do, since it's completely possible to do Dzemael Darkhold as it is now. Just understand better your class, plan better strategies, and you'll see that HP/MP regen problem will be no more =)

Yes thats true, SE have always preferred that players fix their lack of game design, Ninja in FF11 for example.

[Felis]

In the german text it read more like you get no recovery while you are moving, use an action or an aggro signal is blinking