If You Were A Class/Job Designer...

[Syzygian]

Haha, yeah I'll bite.

Remarkably little actually. The most infuriating thing about tank balance is how little they'd have to do to fix it.

This factors in 3.2 changes -
PLD:

1. Make RoH's modifier 5.5 like PS and BB.
2. Make Sheltron blocks restore 60 TP.
3. Remove Clemency's cast time, keep its MP cost, make it an ability with a 45 second recast.
4. Move ShO and SwO off the GCD, keep their MP cost..
5. Increase Cover's range to 15y, have it cover magical and physical damage, shorten the duration to 10s and shorten the recast to 90s.
6. Tempered Will restores 100 TP in SwO.

WAR:

1. Increase Equilibrium's recast to 90s. Leave TP restore as is. Buff cure potency to 1600.
2. Reduce BB potency to 270, SP to 240, buff SE potency to 280, Maim potency to 200. No tank's enmity combo should be their top DPS.
3. Overpower no longer interrupts combos. A tank's most basic enmity AoE (Flash, Unleash) should not interrupt combos.
4. Steel Cyclone/Decimate interrupt combos.
5. Defiance now heals for the percentage of HP increased (such that you're at the same percentage of your max HP whenever you change stances), to balance with Oaths/Grit being oGCD.

DRK:

1. Add a physical Shadeshift/Stoneskin effect to non-DA DD for 20% of max HP.
2. Adjust DASE's self-heal in Grit to ignore the Grit damage penalty and cost no TP (DA only, Grit only).
3. Add a 30s slashing debuff to Scourge, separate from the DoT. Does not stack with and is overwritten by SE/DE. Would not change DRK's rotation, and would not change DRK/WAR comps but would make PLD/DRK comps much easier.
4. Move Grit off the GCD, keep the MP cost.

ALL:

1. Awareness now lasts 25 seconds for all tanks. Enhanced Awareness reduces recast time to 90s for PLD.
2. Bloodbath now lasts 30 seconds for all tanks. Enhanced Bloodbath reduces recast time to 70s for WAR.

Felt like bumping this since this thread has picked up steam.

[Shurrikhan]

Felt like bumping this since this thread has picked up steam.

I'd actually dislike quite a few of these changes if done, or feel that their outputs would be better served through different means.

PLD:

• 2. Placing a TP restore on Shelltron further niches PLDs out of magic-only fights and into the MT role. You've mentioned disliking how much of DRK's utility is locked to MT, so why would you worsen the same for PLD? Why further make WAR the OT, and the kick the non-WARs into the MT-as-often-as-possible-war-cds-are-for-fell-cleave corner?
• 3. This would cut its potential per-event healing done in half. It takes less than 45s to regain the full mana cost as is, and far less when making use of Shelltron. We'd end up again having nothing to use our mana on (except for the oGCD oath changes in [4]).
• 4. With what, if any, recast timer? Given the change to Clemency, there's very, very little to keep this from being considerably stronger than Defiance/Deliverance when the 20% mitigation exceeds the value of +20% healing taken. Nevermind, you got rid of the delayed eHP increase, so given even value of healing and mitigation, the two swap systems are equally powerful. Will PLD's then also be at 10s recast?

WAR:

• 2. So we further make SE cost nothing for WARs in WAR/NIN combos? Well, not going to change anything in that regard, at least. /shrug. I'd like to at least see BB enmity increased by the 3.7% lost, though, as it's then even less desirable to use when the WAR needs both Storms. Long live OT WAR?
• 3/4. Why? Just... why? Did WAR not have enough internal conflict among its mechanics that it needed more reason to waste its stacks? Overpower is much more intuitive to prep or waste combos for than any stack-generating ability.
• 5. This was the one bit that made stance-dancing interesting in itself for WAR... Why would you remove that? Just to buff it to Oath/Grit levels?

DRK:

• 1. Why not on the DA-DD as well? At that rate the value of the non-DA DD may well outweigh the DA form's.
• 2. Free Souleater three times per minute? When you already take 6+ minutes to run out of TP?
• 3. That'd be hugely more valuable than either Dancing Edge or Storm's Eye. Hugely. Only 10 potency wasted on its own application, as compared to 60 in applying Storm's Eye. PLD's lack of slashing debuff now sticks sorely, whereas it used to seem WAR-unique among tanks. And it's still an instant 575 DoT to boot...?

[Syzygian]

Replies in bold.

I'd actually dislike quite a few of these changes if done, or feel that their outputs would be better served through different means.

PLD:

• 2. Placing a TP restore on Shelltron further niches PLDs out of magic-only fights and into the MT role. You've mentioned disliking how much of DRK's utility is locked to MT, so why would you worsen the same for PLD? Why further make WAR the OT, and the kick the non-WARs into the MT-as-often-as-possible-war-cds-are-for-fell-cleave corner? See #6. Its just to give PLD a TP restore while tanking, and a different one while OTing. PLD OT would still be good and have a way to restore TP. It has little to do with utility, PLD can still Clemency/Cover/DV whether MT or OT with all of these changes. Perhaps the numbers are skewed, we'll say... 120 TP in SwO for TW, 40 TP for Sheltron in ShO. Maybe that'd be more balanced. Maybe TW could render magic parryable/blockable for the duration (not actually offering concrete mitigation but offering the chance, if paired with Sheltron/Bulwark? *shrug*)
• 3. This would cut its potential per-event healing done in half. It takes less than 45s to regain the full mana cost as is, and far less when making use of Shelltron. We'd end up again having nothing to use our mana on (except for the oGCD oath changes in [4]). Fair enough, but I highly doubt any PLD is using Clemency literally every time they have the MP for it. If anything it being oGCD makes it a net-gain. Now it can spot heal itself or the party without shooting its DPS in the foot, or robbing itself of potential blocks/parries. If the recast+MP cost doesn't make sense I suppose we could increase the MP cost? So that a poorly timed Clemency could rob a PLD of the ability to stance dance or perhaps Stoneskin? Not sure that'll be a popular idea...
• 4. With what, if any, recast timer? Given the change to Clemency, there's very, very little to keep this from being considerably stronger than Defiance/Deliverance when the 20% mitigation exceeds the value of +20% healing taken. Nevermind, you got rid of the delayed eHP increase, so given even value of healing and mitigation, the two swap systems are equally powerful. Will PLD's then also be at 10s recast? Yes, 10s. My previous version of this list had Grit/Oaths at 20-30s recasts with Defiance left untouched as far as the healing component outlined in the WAR section, perhaps that would seem more balanced to you?

WAR:

• 2. So we further make SE cost nothing for WARs in WAR/NIN combos? Well, not going to change anything in that regard, at least. /shrug. I'd like to at least see BB enmity increased by the 3.7% lost, though, as it's then even less desirable to use when the WAR needs both Storms. Long live OT WAR? It just doesn't make sense for BB to be their top DPS - meaning WAR doesn't need to sacrifice anything for enmity. The potency changes still keep the same net average potency across their rotation. I guess I'd also accept the reverse of this, where PLD/DRK potencies are changed so that their enmity combos are a net gain and their debuff combos are a net loss, but then... you'd have 3 tanks that never want to offer raid mitigation and are constantly disregarding enmity meters for the sake of personal DPS, instead of 1.
• 3/4. Why? Just... why? Did WAR not have enough internal conflict among its mechanics that it needed more reason to waste its stacks? Overpower is much more intuitive to prep or waste combos for than any stack-generating ability. I'm not following. Wasting stacks? Also where in the nigh-flawless design of the WAR job is there mechanical conflict?
• 5. This was the one bit that made stance-dancing interesting in itself for WAR... Why would you remove that? Just to buff it to Oath/Grit levels?If I'm putting Grit and Oaths off the GCD they're now instant 20% mitigation oGCD on demand, MP/recast providing. So Defiance needed a heal to keep it level with that. Also I'm not quite following you on what is inherently "interesting" about creating a 25% HP discrepancy whenever you turn Defiance on.

DRK:

• 1. Why not on the DA-DD as well? At that rate the value of the non-DA DD may well outweigh the DA form's. Because a common complaint is that DA and non-DA versions of things are too similar. This makes it so that DADD is still optimal for trash/dungeons, but regular DD is viable for (physical) TBs to an extent. This way they both do wholly different things but are equally useful in different instances. Another thing I'd consider is maybe have DD grant a second buff that is like a parry version of Sheltron - So you are guaranteed to parry the next attack and then have increased parry rate for the remainder of the buff. Its balanced with Sheltron b/c Sheltron has half the recast, restores MP (and TP in ShO), and block is more powerful for that one single hit than Parry.
• 2. Free Souleater three times per minute? When you already take 6+ minutes to run out of TP? 4 times per minute. And you take 6+ minutes to run out with Grit off+Blood Weapon uptime. That's why I said "Grit only, DA only". Its strictly to give them a pinch of TP sustain while MTing with Grit on. Gritless/Blood Weapon DRK floors in 6.5 min. Grit DRK floors in 4.2 min. Lets not even talk about how long WAR takes to never run out of TP. This change is almost the exact same as WAR stack abilities costing no TP. You're expending MP here instead of stacks to use a GCD for no TP. And only in Grit. ****(After crunching some numbers, I realize this would be a bit "OP" (still not as crazy as WAR's Deliverance sustain though, not by a long shot). However, if Grit+DA SE TP cost was reduced to say, 30 TP, it would be in line with a Gritless BW DRK sustain (about 150~ TP consumed per minute))
• 3. That'd be hugely more valuable than either Dancing Edge or Storm's Eye. Hugely. Only 10 potency wasted on its own application, as compared to 60 in applying Storm's Eye. PLD's lack of slashing debuff now sticks sorely, whereas it used to seem WAR-unique among tanks. And it's still an instant 575 DoT to boot...?
  No, its a 500 potency DoT. Salted Earth is 575. Not sure where you're getting the potency numbers (where is DRK (or WAR) losing 10/60 potency respectively?), as with these changes WAR loses no DPS in applying the slashing debuff at all. And with these changes, PLD and DRK comps would have a slashing debuff. Its win/win. In DRK/WAR comps, WAR would still use Eye, and NIN would still not use DE. So no change there at all, literally. The potency of the move that applies the slashing debuff doesn't make a difference unless it somehow changes DRK/WARs rotation, which in this case, it doesn't. But for PLD/DRK comps it would be a godsend. PLD not having a slashing debuff at this point is moot because its partner would always be bringing one for it, unless your other tank is also a PLD in which case... well. You got me there. Perhaps we could give them both a slashing debuff (attach one to Goring Blade or something) but make them only applicable out of tank stance. Again, rotation stays the same, and that way they'd both have a slashing debuff, in any comp, and in a DRK/PLD comp they'd rotate responsibility for maintaining it based on who is MTing/OTing at the time? Who knows.

Feel free to add to/subtract from/edit my suggestions. I tried to be as even-handed as possible while also keeping things pretty minimal.

[Shurrikhan]

Replies in bold.

PLD
2. I completely forgot to reply to 6, sorry, the only issue I had for which being that still 360 less TP per 3 minutes, 100 down from 460, when stuck as OT. I just don't see why TP changes should be stuck to either of these positions. The 'differentiation' really isn't worth it, imo.
3. As far as overall average output, it's definitely a buff, but much in the sense that Shield Swipe was. When you'd actually want it, it's crippled. I'm sure many PLDs would prefer the CDed oGCD version, but personally when I do use it, I usually need both casts to actually make the difference. Short of that it just becomes a better, support-capable (half-)Equilibrium, that can't be paired with (the now equal-CD, in case you were ever thinking of actually holding onto Equilibrium for burst saves before) Berserk. There are merits and demerits, but I guess it's just something I'm more personally against, based on my needs, than anything else.
4. 10s is cool, given the Defiance change. (Edit: now that you've buffed Defiance, it could actually even be lower, due to the MP cost, if there was anything else to really spend MP on)

WAR
2. It does though. In the OT role, where any WAR will be 90% of the time, the enmity is wasted, making it so there's at least some reason to use BB over, or with enough SS + Arrow/FW, between, the Storm choices.
3/4. You're at Butcher's Block with 5 stacks as Steel Cyclone/Decimate comes up. You can A) break Butcher's Block's combo, or B) waste Butcher's Block's stack (already capped). And this would be the conflict; my reference before was to the fact that WAR was the only tank that had no conflicts (or niche dependencies), only decisions.
5. It gave you something else to look for than either a 10s oGCD Grit or Sw/Sh Oath could -- falling under 75% hp before swapping from Defiance, and knowing how long it's going to be before a heal hits when swapping to it. It tied in a lot more with the healer, rather than just being something that, when at low enmity, you swap depending on whether you're in Butcher's or Storm combo. At 1 stack, Defiance HS, SS, BB, HS, Deliverance Maim, SE, FC, Infuriate, FC, etc. That's honestly where WAR enmity/potency output gets really scary, since the Defiance buff, more so than it's ability to tank in Deliverance outright (which doing this gets you to the benefits of sooner, without needing to hold off on any utility to maintain enmity lead).

DRK:
1. I just don't like the idea of a unbuffed version of an ability quite possibly granting more mitigation than its buffed version. At that point you're racing to spend it on SE in time just so you can get that shitty DA off your status bar. The other issue, though I could go either way on it, was simply that you now have two conflicting options. You either pop it early, wasting the 20% on AAs before the TB, while fishing for Reprisal, or you hold it to have the 20% on the TB itself, in which case it's basically a one-time ToB. I'd certainly like a buff for DD; I'm just not sure what it most ought to have.
2. Sorry, I was running a low estimate in case you needed 1 per minute on Dark Mind, etc. And ahh, I see then. Rates would indeed be very, very similar to WAR's stack moves, then. Still seems a bit much, though, given that your average TP costs elsewhere are basically Monk-level. Half would be really nice. Might as well attach the same to Power Slash too though in that case, right?
3. Sorry, I always multiply by any permanent damage modifiers when comparing tanks, but forgot to write that I had. 500x1.15 = 575. And... I still think it's going to be about the most overpowered move in the game. A NIN can losslessly Trick Attack after one GCD. Any DRK can reach its full raid damage (apart from cards, FW, BL, TA, HC, etc.) in a single GCD. A DRK becomes solidly the best 4-man tank, for whatever that matters. IN WAR/DRK comps, I'm fairly sure it actually would change something; since the Defiance buff and AP nerf, that 10 potency loss on BB is going to be far from noticeable in terms of dps. The new rotation it allows that would otherwise be limited to enmity-desperate 4-manning (not that a WAR would generally be enmity-short) would be noticeable, though. An MT WAR can now BB, BB, SP, where they would have lost 2 GCDs of SE uptime in a two-enmity combos per storm rotation. Far more enmity, with zero raid contribution loss. They may as well forget about SE, and just stick to Deliverance MTing even sooner, riding on a permanent 10% raid miti. Alternatively, had you left BB as is, it would also be a DPS buff depending on Infuriate timing, if running at a 2.38 GCD or less (iirc). Which makes it weird to me that you haven't really improved anything for OT DRKs here; DRK MT has been buffed, and now they buff WAR MT as well.

[Yuni_Queen]

However buffed version of dark dance is what makes DRK actually quite lower in terms of tanking than WAR or PLD.
20% evasion? Can anyone confirm, that lvl 60 dungeons or some kind sephirot trial has evade chance on at least 1%? In dungeons you may evade 2 or 3 hits from big pulls, but i don't know, if it's worth exchaning for DA + Abyssal Drain, since you will just self-heal yourself for sure, not a probability chance.
What's more, buffing evade by 20% doesnt mean we have 20% chance to evade attacks. We buff evansion stat by 20%.
And since DD increases parry by 30% not 50%, math is telling us to use something stable, that won't make healer's cry "use cooldown!".

"B-but i did... Dark Dance..."

[Violette]

However buffed version of dark dance is what makes DRK actually quite lower in terms of tanking than WAR or PLD.
20% evasion? Can anyone confirm, that lvl 60 dungeons or some kind sephirot trial has evade chance on at least 1%? In dungeons you may evade 2 or 3 hits from big pulls, but i don't know, if it's worth exchaning for DA + Abyssal Drain, since you will just self-heal yourself for sure, not a probability chance.
What's more, buffing evade by 20% doesnt mean we have 20% chance to evade attacks. We buff evansion stat by 20%.
And since DD increases parry by 30% not 50%, math is telling us to use something stable, that won't make healer's cry "use cooldown!".

"B-but i did... Dark Dance..."

Actually 20% increase in evasion in this game IS a 20% increase to evasion (flat), not multiplicative (as far as testing has shown). (Same with parry/block increases. Testing this at the moment in case I've momentary insanity).

Just as 30% parry increase is 30%+base+other sources.

Also, theoretically a 30% increase in parry is a 6% increase in physical defence, which can swing high/low. As we approach n=infinity, where n is number of attacks incoming, this will come closer to the true average.
Not to mention 20% evasion is (again theoretically) a 20% increase in defence against all avoidable attacks. This puts in on par with shadowskin (on a lesser cooldown), with the added parry bonus which adds to low blows/reprisal.

Now while we must recognize the lack of ability to normalize these % chances so they always happen X no of times out of Y tests, we can still see that these abilities approach their true affectiveness under 1 of 2 situations:

A) Multiple mobs are dealing physical damage to the dark knight

B) Mobs (needs not be they have many), are using rapid attack moves that hit quickly. These could be things like Bahamuts claw, Uplander Doom, etc.

In both cases, DA-DD will approach it's true effectiveness.

So while people may rag on DD all they want, it's still the most effective tool Dark Knight has for multiple mob situations.
Am I advocating the use of this for busters such as double rocket fist?
Of course not, but as you've so eloquently put it....."math is telling us", DA-DD can be more than useful as a replacement for shadowskin against multiple mobs.

[Tanathya]

I love DA+DD on trash, but other than that, it lacks of a real use on bosses. In fact, who ever uses DA+DD on bosses? It's DD without DA every single time, and just because it's there and not using it feels weird, but it doesn't do much in terms of mitigation, and I personally use it with the procs in mind, not the incoming damage. It seriously needs a change, or something added to what we have.

[Yuni_Queen]

I am not gonna argue, I had rare pleasure of avoiding hits, actually i rarely bother with using this against big pulls, since SS and/or SW was enough to take on larger packs of enemies.
Thou i will check it out, maybe its a waste of SW.

The problem are those swings. Old good RNG saying states: "If it's not 100%, it may be as well 5." However it cannot be considered as static cooldown to handle certain situations.
I would call it lesser cooldown, but i understand now how DD should be considered as.

Yeah, i wanted to put it in next post, but you made it faster. DRK is AoE adapted.
That's another aspect i find a bit burdensome. Boss fights forces me to keep in mind i have 2 omni-CD and one magic CD. when i use DD its mostly to proc low blows or reprisal.
I am not saying 3 cooldowns aren't enough.

My point is that DRK cannot give 100% of itself in every situation. Hi traits (and i speak mostly about traits) are AoE aspected. enchanced unmend and LB proc on bosses is rather "MEH".