If You Were A Class/Job Designer...

[JackFross]

I dunno, all this talk about RDM...

I can definitely see them whipping out a Spellblade/Spellsword Job when Ala Mhigo finally rears its head, since Ilberd. I'd hope for it to be a tank, but we already have 3 tanks. 4 tanks would be almost too much - it wouldn't really have anywhere to fit in the meta. I think it'd work better as a sword-based dps class with ranged cast-bar spells alongside melee no-castbar combo skills (all of which based off the INT stat) allowing them to duck in for offense and pull away for spread mechanics and such.

Could make it where their main offensive skills are melee range, but they have dots and debuffs such that *require* them to be at range to cast. Couple that with a pair of skills on the same cooldown which allow hopping back and dashing in, and you can definitely make a really fun, dynamic caster class that I think I'd have to at least try out. D:


//O-oh, you could even make them have a Fight or Flight style buff - a pair of them. One for Physical, one for Magical, so to maximize their damage, you want to be swapping between ranged and melee as your cooldowns come up, but it would also allow you to just sit in one form for a while to deal with certain upcoming mechanics. Getting too invested in this idea, though, so I should stop before I get to a point where any implementation that differs from this would make me disappointed...

I feel a Spellsword/Spellblade is more likely than Red Mage, and the two different Jobs would fill a similar niche, so it'd be one or the other, imo. And, it would make a lot more sense (to me) as a dps Job. It'd at least be potentially way more dynamic/interesting in that slot.

[winsock]

WAR:
Really well designed. Can't think of much I'd want to add or change.

PLD:
DV becomes a burstier version of mantra
Clemency becomes an insta buff or HoT

DRK:
Not sure, but just for the feel I think it would have been cool if grit was substantially different from ShO

[winsock]

Felt like bumping this since this thread has picked up steam.

Currently, there are some offensive advantages to defiance. Your suggested changes make it completely inferior to grit/ShO (although I'm glad you now realized the HP would need to be reduced when disabled). Also, part of what makes WAR interesting is that you need to manage stacks prior to the stance change if you want mitigation after the stance change. Your suggestion takes the away, makes stack management less important, and ultimately the job a bit more stale.

What benefit are you trying to get by moving WAR's dps combo to the utility combo? It's not needed and also makes WAR's rotation more stale.

Why change existing combo break mechanics on WAR? Is there a reason other than homogenization?

Clemency as suggested is too powerful. Insta-heals are weighted more on cast time than potency. If you want it instant, consider lowering the initial heal by making it a HoT or remove it's ability to target party members.

[Syzygian]

Currently, there are some offensive advantages to defiance. Your suggested changes make it completely inferior to grit/ShO (although I'm glad you now realized the HP would need to be reduced when disabled). Also, part of what makes WAR interesting is that you need to manage stacks prior to the stance change if you want mitigation after the stance change. Your suggestion takes the away, makes stack management less important, and ultimately the job a bit more stale.

Okay I admit it, I'm confused. How do the changes I outlined in any way affect WAR's stack management? You still keep yourstacks on the swap. And there's no reason IB HAS to be the mitigation you use after the swap. WAR has other CDs. The only thing that changes is that you don't require a heal to top up to your new HP ceiling upon switching into Defiance, thus when you put up IB, you're actually tanking the damage of a tank in tank stance with their 20% CD running (like DRK would with Grit+Shadowskin or PLD with ShO+Rampart.) I'm not sure why this is a problem, it actually fixes one of the very few and admittedly minor flaws with the job.

What benefit are you trying to get by moving WAR's dps combo to the utility combo? It's not needed and also makes WAR's rotation more stale.

Why change existing combo break mechanics on WAR? Is there a reason other than homogenization?

Not homogenization, its just can be annoying to stance-dance at times on the other two tanks, since they avoid their enmity combo. If you have zerked, BBing WAR while you're in SwO or Gritless, it can be a pain. The point was to make WAR's top DPS combo NOT its hate combo, so while OTing they're not generating excess enmity that is serving no purpose, and is actually a raid DPS loss if your PLD or DRK has to use a RoH or PS combo to keep hate against your burst. (BB=20 potency gain over SE, PS=130 potency loss over DASE/10 potency+884 MP(min 140 potency) loss over DE, RoH=90 potency loss over RA; therefore a PS or RoH negates the gains of anywhere from 4 to 7 BB combos having been used over SE).

I'll give you the Clemency thing. Maybe a 600 potency heal with a 50 potency HoT over 30s? Although honestly the MP cost and the fact that its a lower potency than Equilibrium (with the changes), combined with the fact that none of PLD's CDs buff it like Berserk can, I feel makes it pretty balanced.

[Syzygian]

In Sephex, the boss's autos CAN be dodged with DADD. Haven't been ballsy enough to try DADD in savage yet.

[Tanathya]

In Sephex, the boss's autos CAN be dodged with DADD. Haven't been ballsy enough to try DADD in savage yet.

None of which are worth spending Dark Arts to buff Dark Dance for a mere chance at dodging them. I mean sure, it can work, but you might as well keep that DA for the next SE.

Edit: I can get behind your idea of adding a 20% shield to it, sounds fairly easy to implement and it would give DA+DD a purpose on actual challenging scenarios.

[Syzygian]

snip

Well if you dodge even just two autos from seph that's like 8K damage you just mitigated so I dunno. Just figured I'd throw it out there, dodging bosses is not impossible.

I'm very, VERY liberal with DA usage, I hit the button probably 80-90 times per fight. In fights with DPS checks as menial as Sephex I don't think I or anyone else will be broken by DAing a DD or two in the first phase (the only one where he AAs).

[Tanathya]

Well if you dodge even just two autos from seph that's like 8K damage you just mitigated so I dunno. Just figured I'd throw it out there, dodging bosses is not impossible.

I'm very, VERY liberal with DA usage, I hit the button probably 80-90 times per fight. In fights with DPS checks as menial as Sephex I don't think I or anyone else will be broken by DAing a DD or two in the first phase (the only one where he AAs).

Again, that's a chance at doing it, if it was reliable, I would use it even if it was a one hit dodge, but it isn't. I'm also very liberal with the use of DA, but not on things like DD on a boss, I'd rather keep using SE. Guess it comes down to the user, so /shrug.

[Syzygian]

Again, that's a chance at doing it, if it was reliable, I would use it even if it was a one hit dodge, but it isn't. I'm also very liberal with the use of DA, but not on things like DD on a boss, I'd rather keep using SE. Guess it comes down to the user, so /shrug.

Reliability isn't a problem when you're talking about AAs. You get hit by a bunch of them, if you dodge even just one, that's pretty cool and worthy of note. I'm not suggesting you pop it to pray for a dodge on a scripted TB. There's also points in your rotation, if you're using BP and BW (tanking Gritless) where you can recover MP faster than DASE alone can spend it, so that's something to bear in mind as well.

Anyway the point wasn't to say that its optimal or a fantastic idea, just to say that boss damage being wholly undodgeable is a myth. You know. For science.

[JackFross]

File under: "Why Butcher's Block SHOULD BE Warrior's highest damage combo"

Every tank has 3 combos. DRK /technically/ has 4. I'll rank them in order from BEST to WORST in terms of damage output.

PLD:
Goring Blade -> Damage over Time
Royal Authority -> Flat damage
Rage of Halone -> Enmity + Mitigation

DRK:
DA+Souleater -> High damage + Mana (self-heal in Grit)
Delirium -> Mitigation + Mana
Power Slash -> Enmity
(Souleater -> Self-heal in Grit + Mana)

WAR:
Butcher's Block -> Enmity
Storm's Eye -> Maim + Slashing Debuff
Storm's Path -> Maim + Mitigation

Looking at these, we can already see that each tank has vastly different priorities when it comes to which combos they use when. It's very important to note that Butcher's Block affords WAR absolutely no bonus to use it outside of its damage output. Looking at the fact that this combo allows WAR to be most effective at holding Enmity as the MT while maintaining DPS is looking at the small picture.

If we're talking big picture - the actually important things that go into the rotations of these Jobs - you'll see straight away why it would be bad to mess with these rotational potencies.

If you changed WAR's damage priority from BB>SE>SP to SE>BB>SP, you do two very very bad things.

1. You DRASTICALLY decrease the skill gap for playing Warrior effectively. Maximum DPS becomes 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3, which no other Tank Job does anymore.
2. OT WAR becomes incredibly simple to maximize, where it is not right now. You point out the fact that WAR using BB is only a minor gain compared to the major loss DRK and PLD take to use their Enmity combos. This is absolutely true and is a hallmark of a B A D W A R R I O R. This should not be brought up in a discussion of modifying tank skills, because it's not a consideration when looking at a pair of tanks playing optimally wrt dps on a certain mob.

The rotations (in general) for the tanks tend to shake out as:

GB>RA>RA
DASE>DE>DASE>DE
SE>BB

And you want to take the /simplest/ one of these and make it /even simpler/ by removing the /only thing about it/ that makes it actually a thing to manage and consider.

This is bad. And silly. And not a good thing to push for.

The fact that Butcher's Block is the strongest combo is not a problem. The problem is Warriors who don't realize that dropping 20 or 40 potency here and there to allow the other tank to maintain the lead while tanking out of tank stance is a substantial gain for the raid.

If I'm playing the MT, and my WAR OT pulls hate off of me, I just let him keep it. Not my fault, not my problem. I pull in tank stance, drop an enmity combo or two to open, and then swap out and go dps in fights without serious tank checks. It's up to both tanks to manage it properly.

Maybe my opinion is shit, because I feel the exact same way about healers who pull hate off of me while I'm tanking in or out of tank stance, so take it with a grain of salt.



//PS. If you were to swap it to have SP be the highest to maintain the two-combo approach, WAR becomes the only tank in the game who doesn't have to choose whether to use mitigation or not.

//PPS. Most important thing to note re: Slashing debuff is that it's 20 seconds. Scourge is a 30s debuff, and if you shorten it to 20s, the overall rotation becomes messed up, since it'll fall off mid-combo. Goring Blade is 24s. If you changed the slashing to not 20s, you'd really mess with WAR's rotation, since 20s is /perfect/ for the way their skills all synergize with one another.