If You Were A Class/Job Designer...

[Shurrikhan]

Lies. Better numbers + removal of playstyle depth aren't universally "better", especially in a thread focusing on design.

How did your "correction" in any way mark a difference in that idea? You chose to read it one way when it could go either way, and then call him out as if he had specified the opposite...

[winsock]

How did your "correction" in any way mark a difference in that idea? You chose to read it one way when it could go either way, and then call him out as if he had specified the opposite...

My take on it, with this being a thread about design, was that: "the war design would be better if SE was the damage combo". My counterpoint was that the numbers would be better, but not the design.
If I misinterpreted the message (which I have absolutely made that type of mistake before) I apologize to you Violette. My mistake

[JackFross]

Why would you loose aggro to WAR on Delieverence, until you are one of those paladins "sorry, forgot shield oath"? And until OT makes a "good job" of OTing in defiance, which is stupid, especially that WAR's enmity stance does not eat up 15% of your max MP and is oGCD.

Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time? There's literally no reason to use Shield Oath for Blaster or Swindler, even as MT. There's no reason to use Shield Oath during the tiny-gob phases on Ratfinx. There's no reason to be in Shield Oath in Quickthinx unless you're solo-tanking. Even then, only for Uplander Doom (the ones you don't HG the stacks away for). And there's no reason to ever turn Shield Oath on in A8, except to grab snap aggro during phase 2 and the start of final phase.

This, of course, is ignoring the fact that (in general) I pull in Shield Oath and follow:
FB>SB>RoH>FB>RB>SwO>FoF>GB
for every single one of the listed fights, save Ratfinx. I'll also pull in SwO on Quickthinx, ideally, but I need my NIN friend with Shadewalker to do so safely.

Tanking in Sword Oath with a WAR who doesn't manage their enmity in Deliverance makes it /very easy/ to lose hate.


Or am I just supposed to turtle and be a ShO tank because ShO is the tank stance? I tend to like to push my 1k dps on the A6 bosses, even while being MT. I use RoH while in SwO to maintain hate. A Warrior in Deliverance with Berserk up spamming BB will tear that boss right off of me, and there's nothing I can do about it. All I'm saying is that, if this happens, I just let the WAR tank. Manage your aggro or be the MT - that's all there is to it. It's 40 potency to just use a Storm's Path instead of Butcher's Block and not pull hate if you're close. It's a 90 potency drop for me to RoH instead of RA. I'm likely beating the WAR /anyway/ if this is DF, so I can't be arsed to let them be shit.

[Yuni_Queen]

Because I'm not some scared tank who tanks Midas Normal in Shield Oath/Grit 100% of the time?

Me too and yet i never lost aggro, becuase warrior was trying to make biggest dps possible for him. Maybe you should reconsider using different combo rotation?

Changing from BB to SE combo to do not steal aggro is one thing. Loosing aggro, despite the fact, you claim you ain't scared tank is another.

[DWolfwood]

snip

WARs are gonna open 3x Fell Cleave if they can. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to force yourself as MT.

You probably won't be MT for Blaster in Savage anyways.

[JackFross]

Me too and yet i never lost aggro, becuase warrior was trying to make biggest dps possible for him. Maybe you should reconsider using different combo rotation?

Changing from BB to SE combo to do not steal aggro is one thing. Loosing aggro, despite the fact, you claim you ain't scared tank is another.

When I open with RoH in Shield Oath, turn Sword Oath on after Riot Blade and follow it up with 3 RoH and 2 GB under FoF in Sword Oath and the WAR or WHM still manages to pull off me by the end of it, while the DRG bursting 2400 is a solid amount behind without a NIN, it's not my rotation that's the problem.

WARs are gonna open 3x Fell Cleave if they can. Maybe you shouldn't be trying to force yourself as MT.

You probably won't be MT for Blaster in Savage anyways.

When the other tank turns off tank stance the second we get into the room, while I'm already in Sword Oath, it's pretty heavily implied that they're expecting me to pull and tank. If they can't throttle their hate generation in Berserk to not rip hate off me, they're either a bad WAR or a bad tank. When I spend my 3 non-dot combos in my initial FoF using RoH combos and still don't have solid hate against the OT or a healer, it's not me who's doing things wrong.

[Yuni_Queen]

When I open with RoH in Shield Oath, turn Sword Oath on after Riot Blade and follow it up with 3 RoH and 2 GB under FoF in Sword Oath and the WAR or WHM still manages to pull off me by the end of it, while the DRG bursting 2400 is a solid amount behind without a NIN, it's not my rotation that's the problem.

Your DPS party memebers + OT are doing mayhem with all they got and your opening contain ONE RoH under shield oath?

Party wipes, becuase players make mistakes, not becuase paladin didn't use Goring Blade in sword oath. Your savage 50 potency auto-attack enhancement is not worth loosing aggro.
Also, saying "Not my fault, not my problem" would result in instant kick from the party. There is no party or static, that want player selfish enough to do not be concerned about PARTY problems.

You, as MT, are loosing aggro. That's PARTY problem and YOUR fault.

[Shurrikhan]

Your DPS party memebers + OT are doing mayhem with all they got and your opening contain ONE RoH under shield oath?

Party wipes, becuase players make mistakes, not becuase paladin didn't use Goring Blade in sword oath. Your savage 50 potency auto-attack enhancement is not worth loosing aggro.
Also, saying "Not my fault, not my problem" would result in instant kick from the party. There is no party or static, that want player selfish enough to do not be concerned about PARTY problems.

You, as MT, are loosing aggro. That's PARTY problem and YOUR fault.

I believe the point of that example was that the "DRG bursting 2400" wasn't remotely a problem, yet the 1300 bursting Warrior using Butcher's Blocks was. At the cost of maybe some 30 dps by Storm's Path or a second Eye instead, the Warrior could allow the PLD an extra 150 by not competing in threat. Alternatively, if he wants to Butcher with a Sword Oath PLD MT, then it makes no difference apart from future CDs who's tanking at that time, as long as he moves into MT position, instead of aiming cleaves into the raid just to get his extra 20 potency. I'm not sure why you'd blame the PLD in this example for the party problems. The only competing threat in that example is the OT. And why should a tank have to pad his enmity just to deal with... another tank?

[Litegrace]

I would like to post my current thoughts about Paladin and what could potentially fix them. Please note that these are just ideas and would be subject to potency/duration changes if by some magical force they were ever implemented (ie this is mostly just for fun and a wishlist). The way I see it, Paladin is much better but still suffers from a few things. The biggest issue would be AOE enmity/damage (it's actually hilarious how little damage you do in large groups, to the point that you barely want to pull big, whereas the other two tanks can nuke big groups). The other biggest issue in my eyes is the fact that we have a cooldown that is almost entirely pushed aside (Tempered Will) since it's almost always useless.

To address these issues, I would personally make the following changes:

1) Tempered Will: Reduce cooldown to 90 seconds, also restores 100 TP. This is to address the TP issue (that has admittedly been made better than before), but also to make the cooldown useful by reducing the recast. This would allow you to decide between using it when it comes up for TP or saving it for fights that could benefit from the mechanic (or in some cases, both).

2) Rage of Halone: Extend duration of debuff to 24 seconds from 20. This would make Halone more useful overall, while still maintaining the balance of it not being the highest DPS combo. Would also allow Paladin/Dark groups to maintain both Delirium and Halone 100% of the time. I realize Warrior also has a 20 second debuff, but theirs is quite a bit more useful overall, while also providing a small heal. Overall, this would serve to lessen the gap between PLD/DRK groups and PLD/WAR or DRK/WAR.

3) Goring Blade: Same effect, but hits in a small radius. Potency would remain 50 for the main target, but 25 for every other mob hit. Only the DOT carries to the other mobs, whereas the initial target takes the 240 combo hit as well. This would help massively with AOE enmity generation and damage, while still keeping it below the other tanks (as the other two need to manage MP and stacks respectively). Also remains locked behind a combo, helping to maintain balance.

4) Flash: Same effect, but adds a 60 potency to every target hit. Warrior and Dark Knight can both spam Overpower/Unleash for big damage in groups (ignoring Decimate and Abyssal Drain as they aren't the direct comparisons), whereas Paladin has to spend GCDs on a 0 damage AOE attack. The potency is only 60 in order to balance the ability, as Paladin does also get the blind effect from using this.

Overall, these would be my changes. I would be curious what others think about this, I have just been jotting down things that I feel Paladin lacks in or feels weak at as I have been running through end game content. I don't personally feel like these buffs would be too much, but would be rather balanced. Again, I do think the changes made to Paladin previously are a step in the right direction but not quite enough. TP issues have been lessened, DPS increased, and Divine Veil/Clemency made more useful, but as said above I believe AOE damage is severely lacking (even though Paladin should do less than the other two). As a cherry on top, adding an animation in for Sword Oath (like a glowing blade or some kind of animation for when the second hit occurs) would be great. Just a visual thing, but would be nice

[SpookyGhost]

There's no feasible reason to use BB under Berserk outside of a pre-pull 50s 3x FC opener (due to the Fracture being at the end), as if you're doing Fracture -> [HS] -> FC -> FC your Eye will fall off for a GCD resulting in less potency overall. If he refuses to listen though, just do an extra RoH as it's better to lose DPS and not wipe than it is to gain DPS and wipe. Obviously, ideally, you gain DPS and don't wipe but y'know... DF...