New Prelim Tank updates

[Torunya]

Ah. I see.

Main Class
Marauder Lv 60

Seriously bro, better make sure you got your bases covered next time before taking a low blow.

[SpookyGhost]

Seriously bro, better make sure you got your bases covered next time before taking a low blow.

Ah, sorry, didn't realize people wouldn't understand this. Allow me to explain:

You see, this poster - Starbirth, whose name in game is Nebula Starbirth, who leveled the class Gladiator to then unlock Paladin as their "Main Class" (this is important, remember this) - they insinuated quite a few things.

Firstly, they assume that Warrior should be nerfed, as it's "overpowered". This discussion has come up in quite a long thread, called something along the lines of "Nerf WAR! ", you can find it if you search for a minute or two. It's a common idea that WAR needed to be brought down, instead of the others brought up - however, this doesn't take into account that all tanks baseline damage is being nerfed via switching our AP to scaling purely with STR, to scaling with STR & VIT at a lower rate for both combined than with just STR previously. So the common complaint that "Warrior is doing BRD/MCH levels of damage!", though was already flawed, isn't true at all anymore.

So what does this mean? This means we need to look at each job in relation to the others. WAR is touted as the "DPS tank" (which it is) and the "self heal tank" (which it is). PLD is touted as the defensive tank (which it isn't) and DRK is touted as... well... nothing (which... I mean it's got magic mitigation I guess). So of these 3, which are lacking? I'd put my money on PLD and DRK not really following through with what they're designed to be. DRK already does WAR level DPS, it doesn't need boosting in that regard - it mainly needs to feel a niche that isn't just mitigating some more magic damage (MP management doesn't count as that doesn't contribute to the group, it's just a factor in DRK's DPS which as I said already is fine). PLD is a bit lower than DRK, which would be fine if it's toolkit actually made up for it... but it doesn't.

Now, with this knowledge, what can we gather? WAR is doing fine, it's doing what it's meant to do, it's a solidly put together job - possibly one of the most well put together in the game (barring SCH). Let's say we brought WAR down - would this fix PLD's/DRK's problems? No - it would just make WAR clumsy and poorly designed like the other 2. Everyone who doesn't have their heads firmly planted in their backside wants parity, wants balance, wants everyone to work together. There are certainly slight tweaks you can make to WAR - I feel Equilibrium should be on a longer CD and that SE is too strong of an offensive boost. DRK and PLD don't necessarily need SE, but they need something to either boost DPS or boost mitigation that then boosts DPS through that.

There's a lot I could go into RE: DRK & PLD's problems, but that's kind of missing the point. The reason I wanted to point out these problems in the first place is to just make it clear that WAR doesn't need outright nerfing to bring parity - with the VIT change, you can literally just boost everyone else up. WAR will lose it's "DPS tank" niche, but even just as a self heal tank it's got a lot going for it and I think it'd be fine filling that role.

So, onto my second point, and that's that Starbirth (the one you quoted, incase I've made that ambiguous) is calling the WAR population "nerds" for not wanting their job to be nerfed. I've already discussed the reasoning for not wanting WAR nerfed above and there are various other points to be made that I probably haven't covered, but I'd also like to point out that "nerds" is used as an insult here. Uncool, right? I mean, some people find "nerds" to be an endearing thing, but within the context of that post they're using it to mean (essentially) "idiots". Now, that's not cool - that's not cool at all. I can't say that every WAR is smart, or stupid, or anything in-between - but classifying all the people who don't want WAR nerfs as "nerds" (WAR or otherwise) is a bit... well... uncool.

Alright, follow me here, now - from this point I was feeling a bit... confused I guess, had the urge to make the post I'm making now to point out some things to them, but then I realized... oh... Paladin. Now, I feel like I made my point with that post alone, but since it's apparently been misinterpreted I'll clarify: this person has no perspective. They are fine with WAR being nerfed for their supposed view on what would be parity because their's is currently only 51. For some ungodly reason no one wants their job buffed - everyone wants WAR brought down to their level. I genuinely do not get this mindset. Like, I start to think that the people with this mindset just want balance and are taking themselves out of the equation... but then surely that leads them to the conclusion that WAR only needs minor tweaks and the 2 other jobs need major ones. Surely, right? Is this only obvious to me? I dunno.

So, in conclusion, I pointed out that his main was PLD because he insulted a pretty big group of people and kinda went down the road of "buff PLD nerf WAR"... as a PLD...

Also both of you are PLDs, which I guess is just an interesting side note. Viridian City is cool though.

Also also, sorry for the long post, but I didn't want any of my points misinterpreted this time around. I probably could still be incoherent in some places as I was about to head to sleep before I saw this, so if something is weirdly worded I apologize. My assumptions might also be wrong all together, though in general I don't think it's cool to insult a group of people just because you don't agree with their opinion.

( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ

[Starbirth]

Ah, sorry, didn't realize people wouldn't understand this. Allow me to explain:

You see, this poster - Starbirth, whose name in game is Nebula Starbirth, who leveled the class Gladiator to then unlock Paladin as their "Main Class" (this is important, remember this) - they insinuated quite a few things.

Sure thing!

Firstly, they assume that Warrior should be nerfed, as it's "overpowered". This discussion has come up in quite a long thread, called something along the lines of "Nerf WAR! ", you can find it if you search for a minute or two. It's a common idea that WAR needed to be brought down, instead of the others brought up - however, this doesn't take into account that all tanks baseline damage is being nerfed via switching our AP to scaling purely with STR, to scaling with STR & VIT at a lower rate for both combined than with just STR previously. So the common complaint that "Warrior is doing BRD/MCH levels of damage!", though was already flawed, isn't true at all anymore.

Wanna know why its a common idea? It's better to nerf one thing than power creep everything else.

So what does this mean? This means we need to look at each job in relation to the others. WAR is touted as the "DPS tank" (which it is) and the "self heal tank" (which it is). PLD is touted as the defensive tank (which it isn't) and DRK is touted as... well... nothing (which... I mean it's got magic mitigation I guess). So of these 3, which are lacking? I'd put my money on PLD and DRK not really following through with what they're designed to be. DRK already does WAR level DPS, it doesn't need boosting in that regard - it mainly needs to feel a niche that isn't just mitigating some more magic damage (MP management doesn't count as that doesn't contribute to the group, it's just a factor in DRK's DPS which as I said already is fine). PLD is a bit lower than DRK, which would be fine if it's toolkit actually made up for it... but it doesn't.

Ok, this has been known for a while now.

Now, with this knowledge, what can we gather? WAR is doing fine, it's doing what it's meant to do, it's a solidly put together job - possibly one of the most well put together in the game (barring SCH). Let's say we brought WAR down - would this fix PLD's/DRK's problems? No - it would just make WAR clumsy and poorly designed like the other 2. Everyone who doesn't have their heads firmly planted in their backside wants parity, wants balance, wants everyone to work together. There are certainly slight tweaks you can make to WAR - I feel Equilibrium should be on a longer CD and that SE is too strong of an offensive boost. DRK and PLD don't necessarily need SE, but they need something to either boost DPS or boost mitigation that then boosts DPS through that.

Seems to me War is doing more than fine. Even after 3.2 its static spot seems secured along with PLD, but now it seems poor DRK is the odd man out.

There's a lot I could go into RE: DRK & PLD's problems, but that's kind of missing the point. The reason I wanted to point out these problems in the first place is to just make it clear that WAR doesn't need outright nerfing to bring parity - with the VIT change, you can literally just boost everyone else up. WAR will lose it's "DPS tank" niche, but even just as a self heal tank it's got a lot going for it and I think it'd be fine filling that role.

There's that power creep again.

So, onto my second point, and that's that Starbirth (the one you quoted, incase I've made that ambiguous) is calling the WAR population "nerds" for not wanting their job to be nerfed. I've already discussed the reasoning for not wanting WAR nerfed above and there are various other points to be made that I probably haven't covered, but I'd also like to point out that "nerds" is used as an insult here. Uncool, right? I mean, some people find "nerds" to be an endearing thing, but within the context of that post they're using it to mean (essentially) "idiots". Now, that's not cool - that's not cool at all. I can't say that every WAR is smart, or stupid, or anything in-between - but classifying all the people who don't want WAR nerfs as "nerds" (WAR or otherwise) is a bit... well... uncool.

I apologize for using the term nerd in a derogatory way. Next time I'll wait for you to get into your safe space.

Alright, follow me here, now - from this point I was feeling a bit... confused I guess, had the urge to make the post I'm making now to point out some things to them, but then I realized... oh... Paladin. Now, I feel like I made my point with that post alone, but since it's apparently been misinterpreted I'll clarify: this person has no perspective. They are fine with WAR being nerfed for their supposed view on what would be parity because their's is currently only 51. For some ungodly reason no one wants their job buffed - everyone wants WAR brought down to their level. I genuinely do not get this mindset. Like, I start to think that the people with this mindset just want balance and are taking themselves out of the equation... but then surely that leads them to the conclusion that WAR only needs minor tweaks and the 2 other jobs need major ones. Surely, right? Is this only obvious to me? I dunno.

So why then is everyone so afraid to have their class brought down if it performs better or on par than the others in all categories? There is always the chance at some point that your class may need to be adjusted down instead of buffing everything else and this comes with the territory when playing online games. If everything else is power creeped to cater to one group of players it can have disastrous effects on the future of the game for everyone. Yes, my War is 51 and its a pretty moot point. I played Warrior at 50 alongside PLD for a long time and post 50 doesn't add anything remotely special to their arsenal. Its one defensive CD, one utility and 3 dps skills. It's also not hard to gauge how good Warrior is at the moment when you can see the parser and everyone brag about how good it is.

I have no perspective because I won't view the world from a Warriors point of view but you won't do the same from another persons? Ok...

So, in conclusion, I pointed out that his main was PLD because he insulted a pretty big group of people and kinda went down the road of "buff PLD nerf WAR"... as a PLD...

Also both of you are PLDs, which I guess is just an interesting side note. Viridian City is cool though.

Also also, sorry for the long post, but I didn't want any of my points misinterpreted this time around. I probably could still be incoherent in some places as I was about to head to sleep before I saw this, so if something is weirdly worded I apologize. My assumptions might also be wrong all together, though in general I don't think it's cool to insult a group of people just because you don't agree with their opinion.

( ´ ▽ ` )ﾉ

Viridian City is cool... and your a Warrior.

[Khalithar]

Wanna know why its a common idea? It's better to nerf one thing than power creep everything else.

This is very true. A lot of MMO devs tend to operate by this idea, that it is better and easier to nerf the outlier than start buffing everyone else. I'm inclined to agree, it's generally been more effective. No one likes to be nerfed, but at the same time I understand that it's better for the game balance to do things this way.

[Reynhart]

Firstly, they assume that Warrior should be nerfed, as it's "overpowered".

The problem is...he's kind of right.

At the moment, WAR has no downside. It's exactly why you always want one, you don't have to "pass" on something to benefit what WAR offers. In fact, were it not for a slower LB, I think more people would just double WAR everything if they can...if they don't already do it...

Of course, you could can change PLD and DRK so that they have no downside too, but it impacts more that just tanks. If you just buff damage, you'll end up with less and less gap between Tanks and DPS (Although we'll see what the stat swap will change on that), and if you overdo it for one job, then you'll have to buff others, where you'll probably overdo something else, and so on and so forth...
Like Starbirth said, it can easily end in Power Creep, wich is a real problem for any MMO.

It still feels very weird that WAR has the WS with the highest one time potency of all the game with Fell Cleave...and it feels even weirder now that PLD has the highest DoT+initial potency with Goring Blade.

And the idea of nerfing WAR come from the fact that it has the highest damage as an OT, the highest utility, while still having on par mitigation and better self-healing than the two other tanks.
Why do people justify PLD's lowest DPS "because it has the highest mitigation" (Which is not entirely true), but people find absolutely normal that WAR has pretty much everything ?

1- Make people EQUALLY want a WAR, PLD or DRK MT. Base it entirely on party setup.
2- Make People EQUALLY want a WAR, PLD or DRK OT. Base it entirely on party setup.

The problem is that the games lacks complexity. In the end, every setup focuses on one thing : DPS.
So, you'd have to give PLD and DRK something to contribute DPS on par with WAR. How would you do that ? Who you just give them the same utility ?

Your idea of building the setup around the tank is a good one. The problem you can have is, as long as you keep 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4 DPS (including one "buffer-DPS"), then WAR's personal DPS will ensure a spot for it.
Long time ago, I'd imagine normalizing MT DPS for all three tanks, so that none is above the others, and making the three tanks focusing on their OT side. For example, giving DRK a leech debuff where anyone hitting the target could refill either MP or TP. This way, even if DRK's damage output is personally lower than WAR, it could allow BRDs or MCHs to go full DPS, if they don't have to put their MP/TP song anymore...or even passing on BRD and MCH to take a higher DPS. To keep that more on the "OT" side, you could put it on Blood Weapon, with Darts Arts changing MP refill to TP refill.

As for PLD, I still like the idea of buffing it's healing capacities so that it could focus on keeping the MT alive (Along with Cover, Divine Veil, Stoneskin, etc...) so that you wouldn't need a second dedicated healer. Yes, PLD's DPS could be abysmally low (This time, you could use the word ), but it would allow the second healer to go full DPS, or even a five DPS setup to compensate. For example replacing Sword Oath with Healing Oath where you swap STR and MND...which wouldn't work anymore since damage is based on VIT ...oh well, a simple cure potency boost and damage penalty could do the trick.

Three setup with the same raidwide DPS, built around their available OT

[Syzygian]

Healer in my static brought up something very interesting:

Her thoughts were that SE actually doesn't care and may even -like- the imbalance of things. Coming from WoW and having been in progression raiding for a long time, she hates that we don't have true "alts" in this game, and you can have every job on a single character, and are expected to just simply switch jobs if there's a better option. It robs people of working with what they have, and working with the player.

Right now, there's a clear "better option" and with things on the path they're on now, having it run-away-train on us could more easily happen in this game than in others because the (ridiculous) class-job system has made it not only possible but laughably easy.

[Reynhart]

Coming from WoW and having been in progression raiding for a long time, she hates that we don't have true "alts" in this game, and you can have every job on a single character, and are expected to just simply switch jobs if there's a better option.

Totally.
"Go level WAR", "Go level MNK" is the lamest excuse to a balance issue.
If you could only level one job per character, they'd put far more attention to no job being left behind.

But it's one of the selling points of the game, and it would only start an unprecedented riot to change that.

[Starbirth]

I'd like to don the tinfoil hat with you but I really think SE is just trying to keep current FF fans happy since 1.0 was a disaster and all of 13 was pretty lackluster. Next DRK will get a buff in 3.25 or 3.3, just watch. Hopefully in the utility department though.

[Lyth]

It's good to be pigeon-holed into the MT role. With tank responsibilities being as unequal as they are on most fights, it's a relief not being stuck as OT. Some of us prefer to tank for more than two minutes of a fight, yeah?

Although every role has a "hybrid" position at the moment that is somewhat more in demand, the addition of one more offensively-orientated tank and healer should even it out (BLU/BST + DNC?). That way you have options if you want to be a tank without having to tank so much.

I would rather they get the balance right between PLD and DRK first, so that we're not stuck switching mains every other patch. If you make the dps gap between the two or the overall contribution of tanks to raid dps sufficiently small, you will swing completely in the opposite direction due to PLD's passive bonuses. I'm not a big fan of homogenization, but a bit less uncertainty from patch to patch would be nice.

[SpookyGhost]

Wanna know why its a common idea? It's better to nerf one thing than power creep everything else.

I just typed up an incredibly long thing, didn't copy it, and accidentally deleted everything so here is the tl;dr version:

Powercreep isn't this, putting WAR as the baseline (or constant) and bringing everyone up doesn't result in powercreep when every job is being brought down through the new VIT changes as well - you end up at a stable place where all 3 tanks are balanced. The same could be said about bringing WAR down, however bringing WAR down entirely to PLD/DRKs level makes for clunky design (which PLD/DRK currently have). In terms of DPS, I'd rather have everyone at the current highest point rather than the current lowest. There are tweaks WAR needs, mainly to Equilibrium (CD too short), RI (too powerful of a CD compared to the other 2, alternatively make Bulwark and Dark Dance stronger), and SE/SP (SE needs to be either changed entirely or give everyone a unique equivalent to it, SP needs to be brought down a bit and the STR debuff on RoH needs to be moved to RA, thus meaning that STR/INT down are constantly up at no cost to DPS and SP while more powerful is only up when you take the sacrifice of DPS - a trade off). PLD and DRK are fundamentally flawed as their whole niche is specifically mitigate 2 different types of damage, but the only way to balance things is for that extra mitigation to not matter, which results in both of them really having absolutely nothing going for them.

So, WAR needs tweaks and PLD/DRK need to be redesigned entirely. I really wish I could retype my entire post because it was pretty detailed about all the things I wanted to discuss but I swear it was like 15 paragraphs and I do not have the mental willpower to do that again. I hope my points make sense in this simplified version, if they don't then I can expand upon them if you or anyone has any questions.

At least we can all agree that Viridian City is sweet.

I have the strangest sensation that I'm being insulted.

Ah, sorry, I can see how this came off directed largely toward you - but it was mainly expanding upon my thoughts on Starbright's post rather than your's. I just kinda used your's as a bouncing off point to expand into other stuff that I wanted to make clear. I apologize for the misunderstanding.