New Prelim Tank updates

[SpookyGhost]

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

[Reynhart]

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

[SpookyGhost]

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then. WAR also has Equilibrium (which they didn't nerf, which is kinda surprising) and SW which are both great for cleaves and busters. Bunch of interesting options available to WAR as MT that could be utilized, though I guess we'll see if that ever is necessary or optimal.

[Phoenicia]

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

That problem shows how "badly" designed DRK and PLD toolkits compared to WAR and then how encounters are designed to cover for those "bad designs" in mind. Currently WAR can mitigate EVERY ENCOUNTER in game better than either of other tanks with its kit. Give or take magical encounters where DRK can get close. WAR does not MT not because the other two are better MTs (WAR is better MT), WAR does not MT because the other two SUCK at OT while they don't do that much worse than a WAR MT.

This is basically me reiterating what I wrote before in other posts under other threads that involve tank balance.

Excess cleaves existed in every encounter from T1 in Binding Coil up to T9 in Second Coil and all the primals that came out during these patches (from Titan HM up to Titan Extreme including Moggle Mog Ex.) with mechanics having tank swap intended. But seeing how people cheesed through those with gear, healer CD coordination or just power through (with WAR proving superior because of higher DPS and less gaps in defense), SE started moving to simultaneous tanking as can be seen with Leviathan and T10 through to 13 where tanks needed to keep 2 mobs away or they kill party or other wise share damage or tanks get destroyed. Instead of "Fixing" PLD to have less CD gaps to keep up with WAR, SE chose to keep both tanks busy or wipe.

"But Phoenicia, PLD CDs are superior to WAR's!" you may ask... But not really, while one on one, PLD has more magnitude only than WAR, but WAR's gapless kit allows them to "open" gaps in order to "combine" CDs for superior effects. For example: Each time PLD "needs" rampart, WAR matches it with just IB, but because WAR can, it would ALWAYS combine IB with something else (ToB, Vengeance, RI, Foresight, cheese, pasta, macaroni). For any case PLD "needs" Sentinel, WAR may lack behind with Vengeance, but it can still throw IB for a superior effect (Sentinel is 40%, Vengeance + IB is 46% + 400 potency heal). Note: I didn't fat finger that, IB ignores defiance penalty, so 300/75% = 400 compared to he rest of its attacks. (Another reason why I can argue WAR MT is NOT outDPS'd by dork MTs).

I will stop before this becomes another massive wall of text though.

[Februs]

We are still at a point where out only consideration is the following:

MT: DRK or PLD.

OT: WAR with a crown.

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

Exactly. Like I said before, the changes are nice, but, in the end, they haven't really "fixed" anything. Everyone still has a pre-established role:

• War + Drk = War OT + Drk MT.
• War + Pld = War OT + Pld MT
• Drk + Pld = Pld OT + Drk MT

Everyone is pigeon holed into a specific roll. Drk's, in particular, get the short end of the stick, because no matter who they are slotted with they are always considered MT. In that regard, they REALLY could have used something to make them a viable OT. That said, Drk and War is still the ideal combination, and there's no real reason to replace Drk with Pld.

They (Paladins) also have 4 or 5 (Flash, Stoneskin, Clemency, Shield/Sword Oath and possibly Cure) "free" GCD actions and no non-combo single GCD TP users that can be interwoven into the 9 GCD GB -> RA -> RA/RoH combo rotation. This could be something to consider at skill speeds that drop Paladin GCDs below 2.4 sec (i.e. 10 GCDs per Goring Blade dot).

Like I said before, Pld's will be in the same boat they are now. The fact is that, to maintain their Tp, Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps by casting moves which do 0 dmg and are situational at best. Clemency, Stone skin, and Oath swapping, all have a specific utility. A Pld should be using them for those utilities, not because they are suddenly desperate for TP. No other tank in the game has to waste a turn of their GCD just to maintain their TP bar (though, Drk's can get close if the fight drags on long enough). Given that Pld's already have the lowest overall Dps (and only 3 dmg dealing oGCD's), it is mind blowing that SE has failed, yet again, to address this problem.

[Brannigan]

They probably should have made Clemency also not interrupt combos.

[Causality]

Not breaking combo is great but I am disappointed Grit/Oaths are still on GCD. (The new skill countdown UI picture shows Grit with a GCD still)

Also congrats PLD on all the damage buffs, definitely higher than I expected.

edit - Woah woah woah, there's no MP cost in that picture either, Grit no longer costs MP? That'd be huge if so.

None of the stances cost resources if they are active and you wish to deactivate them. They only cost to activate.

[Reynhart]

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then.

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.
On T13, Flatten is on a 1 minute timer, it's plenty of time to properly rotate your CD.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

[SpookyGhost]

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.

Sorry, just noticed I used the incorrect symbol. Meant <30s, in which case Sheltron wouldn't be available.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

If we're talking Odin at minimum ilvls then WAR would never be out of Defiance because he hits like a truck, but Unchained would be used whenever it's available - ideally with Berserk and Bloodbath. But I think T13 works as a better example as you can quite literally mitigate every Flare Breath and every Flatten with IB (and double IB every other Infuriate).

[Februs]

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

Lol. Alright, alright. "Abysmal" might be a bit of an exaggeration, especially with the new buffs, but the point remains the same. No other job in the game has to actively sabotage their rotation just to stay in the fight, and Pld's Mp draws should be used for utility, not a stop-gap measure when they run out of TP.