New Prelim Tank updates

[SpookyGhost]

Basically, it will never be balanced unless people considering the following:

MT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

OT: WAR, PLD or DRK.

One day...

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing. That probably won't happen, though, as it'd be a fight specifically tailored to WAR's kit and we don't need more fights catering to specific jobs.

[Reynhart]

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

[SpookyGhost]

Unless those cleaves are all magical, there's no reason for WAR to outshines PLD, who can pop Sheltron almost as often.
Besides, having to use Inner Beast too frequently will mean losing Unchained and Fell Cleave opportunities. Two things that are a big part of why WAR can easily outnumbers PLD on DPS.

With the potency buff on GB and RA, I think PLD is more than a match for a mitigation-focused WAR.

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then. WAR also has Equilibrium (which they didn't nerf, which is kinda surprising) and SW which are both great for cleaves and busters. Bunch of interesting options available to WAR as MT that could be utilized, though I guess we'll see if that ever is necessary or optimal.

[Reynhart]

Magical, or on a ~30s CD timer. IB also better for multi-strike cleaves/tank busters due to the time-based mitigation + heal. IB usage doesn't necessarily stop Unchained optimization either, which is evidenced by the first 2 phases of T13 wherein you can mitigate every Flare Breath + Flatten as well as use Unchained when it comes back up and whenever it's needed beyond then.

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.
On T13, Flatten is on a 1 minute timer, it's plenty of time to properly rotate your CD.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

Pld's are encouraged to sabotage their already abysmally low dps

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

[SpookyGhost]

For a 30s timer, you have Sheltron. Sure, it's a one time block, but busters are generally one time hit, so it's not a big issue.

Sorry, just noticed I used the incorrect symbol. Meant <30s, in which case Sheltron wouldn't be available.

To be closer to your example, you have Odin. I haven't done it as a WAR, it would interesting to see how many Unchained/Fell Cleave you can use in this fight while having IB for every Sangetall.

If we're talking Odin at minimum ilvls then WAR would never be out of Defiance because he hits like a truck, but Unchained would be used whenever it's available - ideally with Berserk and Bloodbath. But I think T13 works as a better example as you can quite literally mitigate every Flare Breath and every Flatten with IB (and double IB every other Infuriate).

[Februs]

Ok, it's lower, but abysmally is a little overdramatizing, don't you think ? Especially with the recent buff potency.

Lol. Alright, alright. "Abysmal" might be a bit of an exaggeration, especially with the new buffs, but the point remains the same. No other job in the game has to actively sabotage their rotation just to stay in the fight, and Pld's Mp draws should be used for utility, not a stop-gap measure when they run out of TP.

[Phoenicia]

Happy for loltron and 20 potency increase in mah rotations.

^^^ No offence though.

Doesn't matter. Even if PLD was buffed to do 5k DPS and take 0 damage, literally. DRK gets knocked out, and WAR will be brought in just so PLD cab do 5.5k instead.

Also Sheltron isn't "so great" and in your T13 example, for every "proper rotated CD" the PLD uses, WAR can throw a "better option". Also Sheltron only "forces" a block, something that could happen without Sheltron. And it would only block Flatten. WAR can get the random parry (no matter how low the chance is) for even more mitigation than PLD's options. Also for every 2 Sheltrons, WAR can heal for way more than whatever damage 2 Sheltrons block with Equilibrium. Stop getting blinded by fat numbers.

Compare the following effects vs frequency:

IB > Ramps. But IB heals 400 potency. IB can happen 5.5 times every 1 ramps CD. 5.5 x 6 = 33s. ~40% uptime and 5.5x 400 potency healing = 2200 potency total.

ToB + Conv. < Ramps. ~17% vs 20% DR and 120s vs 90s. Also let's not forget that ToB is a direct 20% effective HP increase REGARDLESS of current HP, so if PLD is at 80% or less HP it Ramps is weaker than ToB. Also, combine it with IB so ToB + Conv + IB >>>>>>>>> Ramps.

Vengeance vs Sentinel? Yes, 30% vs 40%. But 120s vs 180s CD and 15s vs 10s duration. Again, combine IB + Veng >>>>>>>>> Sentinel because 400 heal + 46% mitigation + counter + 15s duration + 33% shorter CD vs 40% and 10s over 3 minutes.

RI vs lolwark. Reliability vs Magnitude chance. 90s vs 180s CD. 20s vs 15s duration. Obvious here. I don't care if you block 50% if Flatten is gonna rearrange your face because RNG decided to block the auto before and after but not the buster.

Holmgang vs HG. Yeah, HG is immunity, Holm is immortality. But for every HG, 3 holmgangs can be used, that's 3 mechanics cheased instead of one, considering the above structure? WAR needs to cheese less.


Now an example T13 rotation:

Sentinel vs IB + Veng.

Rampart vs IB + ToB.

PLD is forced to HG somewhere, WAR lols and IB+ToB.

PLD is back to Sentinel, WAR IB + Veng.

PLD ramps vs WAR IB + ToB.

In a 5 Flatten push during the first two phases PLD eats 7 flare breaths unmitigated that WAR scoffs off with IB with 2 Unchained uses.

PLD eats first Akh Morn without CD because ramps/sent. were used on Twintania, WAR IB's and ToB because it can and lols.

Double WAR combinations just IB + ToB or Veng. alternatively on all Akh Morns, they don't even need to HG. WAR will also use 2 Unchained CDs during the last phase if they carry over their stacks after Twin dies.

Double PLD set up goes into CD headaches.

All the while WAR MT does twice the DPS of loladin MT.

Regardless of who is better at what:

The problem still stands, No one would consider the DRK/PLD combination. WAR sits on the OT spot with a crown and a feather on its head while laughing at the other two tanks Pickering at each other for the MT spot, which WAR could easily push them aside and "show them how it's done" because it can also do it better.

There, I bold'd, italic'd, and underlined it and even colored it red in case you missed it.

[Reynhart]

^^^ No offence though.

None taken.
Except there a tiny itsy bitsy miscalculation on your part. Goring was buffed by a 100 potency when you include DoT.
It's now the highest potency WS, above Chaos Thrust. And I'll wait to see how much more RA does the enmity boost on Savage Blade allows.

I don't need more math on how WAR is a beast even when considering pure mitigation. I don't need more math on how WAR is a beast when considering DPS. I know both of that.
But, using its mitigation means not using its full DPS potency. Replacing a Fell Cleave by an Inner Beast is a huge drop.

The T13 example is not really accurate to compare current jobs, as Sheltron wasn't available. If it were, you'd have to add Sheltron to each Flatten. And since it's perfectly doable to survive a Flatten with only Rampart and without a block, Sheltron could free the PLD from using HG.

No one would consider the DRK/PLD combination. WAR sits on the OT spot with a crown and a feather on its head while laughing at the other two tanks Pickering at each other for the MT spot, which WAR could easily push them aside and "show them how it's done" because it can also do it better.

I wasn't talking about WAR as an OT. I was just commenting on what SpookyGhost thinks of fight that would favors WAR as an MT.

I think WAR can potentially see use as MT in any fights where there's excess cleaves, as where a tank swap might be needed for PLD/DRK a WAR could just keep IBing.

Were I to build a party for that fight, I'd still take a PLD as MT and WAR as OT, unless all those cleaves are magical.

[Starbirth]

I think everyone gets in some way Warrior is the best of the three tanks at the moment and because of Warriors godly status they are the poster boy of the "working as intended" excuse when the truth is they don't want to nerf Warrior because SE lacks the balls to piss off the nerds that play the class. Warrior should have been nerfed and PLD only needed a buff in the utility department.

[Syzygian]

I think everyone gets in some way Warrior is the best of the three tanks at the moment and because of Warriors godly status they are the poster boy of the "working as intended" excuse when the truth is they don't want to nerf Warrior because SE lacks the balls to piss off the nerds that play the class. Warrior should have been nerfed and PLD only needed a buff in the utility department.

I rather liked that they implied Fell Cleave was the most nerf-worthy thing about WAR. That made me chuckle.