DPS: Why is it so dang taboo?

[tgoodner]

Snip for mobile.

i completely empathize with your experience. But the problem is that this is a game, and min/maxing isn't considered fun for a lot of players, even if it's something as simple as keeping your GCD rolling.

Players that want to compete and better themselves will put in the effort to do so. The other players merely want the Final Fantasy experience no matter whether Fractal takes 15 minutes or 55 minutes.

[Synrin]

When you tell a summoner that they should use their damn DoTs and spread them, and they fail to do so for the entire dungeon, of course you will dimiss them.

I do try to help out, but when they don't listen, it isn't even about the numbers... You can see even without the numbers whether the person tries or not.

[tgoodner]

When you tell a summoner that they should use their damn DoTs and spread them, and they fail to do so for the entire dungeon, of course you will dimiss them.

I do try to help out, but when they don't listen, it isn't even about the numbers... You can see even without the numbers whether the person tries or not.

This is the primary reason why FFXIV needs an internal feedback loop for DPS. Until there is an objective measure to gauge player growth, we will continue to see people that think spamming ruin is bad because it has a low potency.

[EdwinLi]

Well it is not as bad as when people start insulting you for playing a certain Job....

"Why are you playing a Dragoon? You should play a Monk because they have better DPS and die less."

"Lol You main a Machinist? Bard does far better DPS than that scrub tier job."

"Play another Job! Machinist sucks as a DPS Job and slows the group down with their low dps."

I swear I get more "Play another job" because how people think about Machinist Job that it annoying being one of the few players that actually know how to play a Machinist.

All I can say is....

"A player only does good DPS on those Jobs because they are skilled enough to min/max dps on them."

The other party members did told these people that they're being a A****** and I mostly ignore these people since I know I would run into them once in a while in DF.

Yes there are players with Job Stereotype issues playing this game and are not afraid to show it.

[Callback]

Honestly, Stone, Sky and Sea does very little to alter the current state of the game, other than to give players who don't use 3rd party applications an abstract idea of their performance. As for myself, I'd rather just leave a PF group that's underperforming than try to ostracize a player that may be uninformed or ignorant about their theoretical potential. If a player wants to get better, they'll put the effort in to do so.

There's no ostracizing involved. I'm suggesting that if they can't clear S3 they can't queue at all without a premade who agrees to take them.

You'd rather continue having players lazy players effectively AFK and try to leech carries, forcing you to leave and re-queue wasting more of your time just for another group that's likely the same exact thing, than have a system that actually verifies that everybody you're potentially matched with is at least capable of being an active participant before throwing you into a duty together?

Tell me, what's the difference between that and just removing minimum ilvl requirements as well? A leecher's a leecher whether i200 or i150. If you're so content to just let them invade random parties without contributing, why not let them invade ones above their level too?

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

[Ryel]

Using S3 as an unlock condition to join a duty in DF can only help the system. The "harassment" argument is ridiculous. You get a lot more harassment when someone joins a party while unable to contribute and wastes people's time than if the system itself informs them they are not ready yet and blocks them from joining in the first place.

Wait was this confirmed that Stone, Sky, Sea were going to be required unlock conditions for duties? The latest interviews with Yoshida seemed to imply that this was NOT the case and that they were purely optional practice tools. In which case the person you are quoting is entirely correct in that they will do very little to alter the status quo of the game.

It might help some players sure, but if they aren't an express requirement for entering a duty (which once again i don't believe that they are) it won't really do much of anything for the players that already think they're "good enough" and just skip it.

From the translated interview:

Challenging a striking dummy before going into battle in "Stone, Sky, Sea"

What are the conditions to unlock "Stone, Sky, Sea"?

Yoshida: Each item will be unlocked when the corresopnding battle content is opened. The procedure to begin Stone, Sky, Sea itself is very simple. When you talk to the warrior in Idyllshire, he'll inform you that given the difference in players' arms, he's come up with a way for warriors to test their skills against a formidable enemy. From there, you'll exit Idyllshire and follow the navigation tips to the area.

Is the idea that you can use Stone, Sky, Sea as an objective measure for party recruitment?

Yoshida: Since that could lead to selectivity, we won't include that. You could put something like DPS who can clear with more than a few seconds as a comment, but players who look at it would have to assess themselves.

Of course, but they may have had no challenge based on their equipment.

Yoshida: Since the purpose is to become confident with the equipment you have and your current action rotation, there is no item-level sync. For example, if you attempt the extreme Bismarck Stone, Sky, Sea challenge at an average item level of 210 it should be easy. On the other hand, if you try the Alexander Midas Savage challenge with gear from Gordias, most people will find that to be quite tough. Then as you strengthen your equipment, you can come back and try the challenge again to become more confident that you can clear... the content is meant to be used in that way. It's a way to check that your equipment and skill are developing in parallel.

Original source: Bookwalker Famitsu Weekly item listing (3/3 issue)


Translation source: Yoshida on Patch 3.2 Content - Famitsu Translation

EDIT: Reread, I'm tired you're saying they SHOULD in which case i agree.

[TheUltimateSeph]

DPS = Damage Per Second. Even if they do 100 damage and then sit afk for 100 seconds before doing more damage they have technically done DPS and fulfilled their role. :P Sure it may have been low (1 damage per second) but they did DPS. DPS classes get a free pass because they aren't even technically needed to complete most content. We are a luxury to speed things up even more for you tanks and healers that already get instant queues as opposed to our 30+ minute ones. Then y'all have the nerve to complain when we don't go fast enough for you? Lmao

[Ashkendor]

I also find it ludicrous how hard you work to strawman everyone that doesn't disagree with you. The "so PC, so PC!!!!" crowd always does this. You work as hard as you can to demonize people not wanting others to be jerks to them and dress it up as being hypersensitive or overly politically correct when really, most people would just prefer game interactions to be civil. If someone's DPS is subpar, there are ways to say it other than "you suck, scrub" or worse. That you throw around "butthurt" and "super casual" give me a good idea what kind of interactions you likely have. :/

His wording is pretty harsh but he's not wrong. I try to give constructive advice/criticism when I'm in a position to do so (i.e. when I'm familiar with the class in question) and the reaction to that is still very mixed. You never know if the person is going to take the advice in stride, ignore it completely, or react like I told them to go jump off a cliff. "I know how to play my class, thanks" is one of the more polite "negative" replies I've gotten. "Shut the *&#$ up, you don't pay my sub" is among the ruder ones. Some people just can't handle being told that they could be doing it better, even if you're offering them the means to do so.

If the player is a jerk about the advice, well, then the best option is to honestly just be quiet, deal with the slow run and go on with your day. One slow run is better than arguing through a whole dungeon.

I'd rather just kick them and potentially get someone better. Or at least someone with a better attitude.

[tgoodner]

S3 will never become a PF requirement. Yoshida mentioned in his interview that it's meant for personal use. Although it is a great opportunity for a performance requirement, this unfortunately won't be the reality.

@Callback: It seems like you had a tough time on PF groups in attempt to clear content. I can only speak from personal experience, but if clearing Savage/Extreme primals is a player's goal, they should invest the time and energy in finding quality players that share the same goal. You technically can't invade a PF, as the premise of it is to extend an invitation to players server wide that want to complete content.

[Galgarion]

Way back when (Six moooooonths soooooo loooong agooooo) I couldn't clear a bismark hard in duty finder, because we couldn't meet the dps check. Flat out. He'd always wipe us out before we could start the second phase because we weren't downing both of the big snake guys in time. It was frustrating as hell.

This story doesn't end with the group mastering the mechanics before the timer ran out and getting a heartwarming win at the last second, thereby proving that perseverance and determination can overcome any obstacle. It ended with pure vitriol and hatred and a lot of finger pointing as each dpser fell on the other ones in a cannibal orgy of blame, each desperately trying to prove for the record that nay, nay, it wasn't they who were lackluster, it was ye. Finally it was a dragoon who got the finger as it were, an cries of booooooot him entered the party chat. And he blew up like Jules in Pulp fiction and basically let everyone know in no uncertain terms that if he were allowed to, he could prove for a fact that everyone else sucked but him. And he left that trial like an old testament prophet leaving Babylon to get mounted by Jackals covered in baby oil or something.

Anyway, he was right, once he took off and got replaced, the dps got even woooorse. It was a friggin horror show was what. I want to say that the other dps fell on their swords in shame, but mostly they just blamed the Astrologian healer.

What a mess.