Machinist and Bard after 3.2

[RecklessLion]

Well I joined the MCH fan club........love the class it keeps me on my toes. Love the burst damage it's really lovely I won't lie but after wild fire I feel like my gun keeps jamming.......and reload is the only way to fix well temporarily until it jams again....stupid procs.

[Kuwagami]

I think my head just exploded. Individual numbers mean a lot. If you yourself are not contributing, then you are a shackle for your group. Picking up as much slack on your side as you can will help alleviate issues on other things. I don't think people really understand that DPS makes the game go' round. Faster DPS means less damage taken, which means less healing needing to be done, which means resources do not need to be as heavily used. Individual DPS is just as important as caring for the group. Its when you cannot balance the two is when it becomes a problem.

Let me rephrase that : Individual numbers don't mean anything if you are to ignore all of the context around. Yeah the best of best machinists have 90 dps less than the bests of best bards. soooo, what ? Doesn't mean crap if that dps is more than enough to kill the duty.

Anyway, let's assume that would matter for a reason or an other. Context then : what about the other members in the group ? The best bard could have a DRG with them while the best MCH doesn't. Bam here is a difference. Or a ninja. Bam, an other difference. Differences that your individual number totally fails to take into consideration.

Also, there is time spent in quarantine (dps loss because you aren't hitting anything during the transfer to the quarantine chamber), if they were chosen to die to pentacles or not, etc etc...

And after all that, individual numbers fail to take into consideration the dps increase to the other members of the raid. That machinist will increase the dps of all the physical jobs. Depending on the party set up, that coudl amount to more than what a bard would bring.

That's what I mean by "individual numbers don't mean anything". Else noone would ever bring ninjas, because DRG and MNK have more individual dps right ?


edit : don't take me wrong though. MCH is slightly sup-performing compared to BRD, I agree. I really just want to point out that parsers should be used with more care on how you handle the data

[Myon88]

Yeah the best of best machinists have 90 dps less than the bests of best bards. soooo, what ? Doesn't mean crap if that dps is more than enough to kill the duty.

If you're comparing two classes against each other, then obviously you want to look at the numbers - in which case 90 DPS is still 90 DPS. That's the whole point of having that conversation, you wouldn't go watch a race and go "Ah it doesn't matter who finished first, they both finished close enough".

what about the other members in the group ? The best bard could have a DRG with them while the best MCH doesn't. Bam here is a difference. Or a ninja. Bam, an other difference. Differences that your individual number totally fails to take into consideration.

Also, there is time spent in quarantine (dps loss because you aren't hitting anything during the transfer to the quarantine chamber), if they were chosen to die to pentacles or not, etc etc...

If you're comparing relative MCH and BRD parses on FFlogs, it's fairly reasonable to assume that the entries you find for both have the same amount of variance in those areas. There's no particular reason to believe otherwise, the top ranks are full of optimized raid compositions and people that have those fights on farm - and the logs themselves have been undergoing natural selection for months now, only the best ones are up there.

[RecklessLion]

Hmm I'm learning the MCH I think people are shouting on dps due to the lack of consistency. I mean Blood for blood, reload, quick reload, reassemble, and hot shot being manage they do some good damage. Just there's periods where I'm firing split shot for a total of 15 seconds before I get a proc. And that's with the quick reload after 15 seconds Never played bard but if they don't have issues like that then the scale will eventually become wider. I think if the class wasn't treated like a poorly made gun that constantly jams on you then MCH would be loved despite the numbers. I think that a class that requires large amount of focus and attention compared to the ease of other classes should receive a little more reward then just enough dps.

[LegoTechnic]

Hmm I'm learning the MCH I think people are shouting on dps due to the lack of consistency. I mean Blood for blood, reload, quick reload, reassemble, and hot shot being manage they do some good damage. Just there's periods where I'm firing split shot for a total of 15 seconds before I get a proc. And that's with the quick reload after 15 seconds Never played bard but if they don't have issues like that then the scale will eventually become wider. I think if the class wasn't treated like a poorly made gun that constantly jams on you then MCH would be loved despite the numbers. I think that a class that requires large amount of focus and attention compared to the ease of other classes should receive a little more reward then just enough dps.

As far as playstyle MCH actually runs into the same issue as SMN 2.0, with Wildfire replacing Aetherize stacks. Originally a SMN would grab their three stacks and ideally use them all for Fester.... and then they would manage dots and Ruin until Aetherize's cooldown came back up, which was ridiculously simple and boring. Dreadwyrm Trance was specifically introduced because this kind of waiting-for-cooldown playstyle really sucks, and it gives them something more interesting to work with.

Unfortunately MCHs are in a similar situation without any Trance-like mechanic. They are a little more engaging because of their shot procs, but it's a similar design flaw of feeling like you "blow your wad and then plink for half a minute". Wildfire is a really fun mechanic and it's cool to see it pop really big numbers (because of the IMPLICATIONS they mean), but they could probably stand to have something nifty to do while waiting for it to come back up.

[KarstenS]

fflogs

You should keep in mind, that not all entries are close to regular gameplay.

Especially the top entries are "made" in optimal party setups with optimal support (buffs, mechanic handling) to push the DPS of that single player.

Last time I looked around, there were 2 videos of A3S 7 man. Both used a MCH in the party and I'm shure, there was a reason for that.

[OneWingedSora]

Last time I looked around, there were 2 videos of A3S 7 man. Both used a MCH in the party and I'm shure, there was a reason for that.

There wasn't, it's mostly because our Machinist was way more comfortable on Machinist than he was on Bard at that time. Bard is better than Machinist at the moment unless you are running a full melee group, there are no arguments here.

[RiceisNice]

Because I couldn't post of the 14 day login thing...

How come tanks aren't included here? :P

Well I can't exclude them either, I'd already factor them into hypercharge when comparing it to foe, though I guess I could've mentioned that. Hypercharge at best breaks even against foe with a 1 caster set up, assuming healers don't dps at all, but the gap widens once they do.

Maybe A4S is the encounter that MCH is better than BRD at ilvl210.

BRD scales better than MCH as the ilvl increases; they benefit more from their secondary stats (crit and sks specifically). If anything, the discrepancy between teh two is only going to increase as the ilvl does.

Why not ? a MCH/NIN/DRG/MNK setting is still possible with the new LB system

My post was made before they had made any confirmations to what hte LB changes were be. I was referencing back in they had initially introduced it in 3.1, where it was strictly 2 tanks, 2 melee, 2 ranged (which categorized BRD/MCH/BLM/SMN all together), and 2 healers. It doesn't apply with the new changes they had announced.

In general about the comparisons

When we're comparing two jobs that both have the same functionality and roles, their damage comparison does matter a bit, especially when one already offers a better damage boost in a current, typical set up (2 tanks, 2 melee, 1 caster, 1 ranged, 2 healers). I mean it's not wide enough to put MCH to the side, but that's aside the point of the actual discussion.

[Myon88]

These (new?) revised LB rules for 3.2 would seem to point to MCH/NIN/DRG/MNK being possible. Source

Duties accessed outside of the Duty Finder (e.g. Alexander Midas):

Limit break gauge will fill more slowly with the following party compositions:

3 or more tanks
5 or more DPS
3 or more healers
Any duplicate jobs/classes

[Bissani]

I can't wait to see how SE is going to add some more susteined dmg to mch, and hope to see MCH with higher individual numbers, but can someone pls show me math behind foe being way better than hypercharge (in a one caster setup) considering that:
1) Tank are hitting all the fight long, and dealing way more dps than the healers (even the main tank, especially if he is DRk)
2) Healers can't dps 100% of the time of the fight
3) Hype got 2 mins CD while Battle voice 5
4) Hypercharge buff 5 ppl with (1100+ dps in the worst case of dps scenario) and the turret itself
5) Hypercherge is istant (and not draining mp) while foe got a cast
6) melee got more buff to pop especially in opener

it's true that MCH got less personal dps than BRD but Hype can bring an higher dps gain to the party.