Machinist and Bard after 3.2

[Alitasan]

I agree we need to wait and see what the actual changes are, I fear however they will be nothing more than a band aid. Bard is dead, the job is no longer fun to play. No amount of math, discussions, or arguments will fix that. There needs to be a serious overhaul of the entire class/job system, and it's just not cost effective for SE to do that at this point. Several things are horribly broken, associate class abilities being either required or useless, no new associate abilities, no new allowances to select more of them either. So far the bard fixes have been to improve responsiveness in our passive procs, so we can better see them, that's not a job fix, that's a server to user interface fix, that should have been done across all jobs as soon as that was discovered.

[Vlady]

Just because the bard is now more caster feeling then it was in 2.0 that does not make it dead.. It it within the 3 top most played jobs and overall there is a healthy amount of bards all around. You cannot walk 5 feet without tripping over a bow wielder. True it is not the population it was in 2.0 but that was a huge imbalance to the point of teams taking 2-3 bards at times for content. I remember doing Titan hard/First coils of Bahamut with 3 bards on our team. Being able to churn out max dps while moving around was a big deal back then.

[Cetonis]

do you think I'll be forced to reroll as bard? Or are MCH not quite as bad as everyone makes them out to be?

They are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be. There are two relevant encounters in 3.1 that favor BRD, and one that favors MCH. On the other two (the hardest two) fights, the classes are roughly even.

Broadly speaking, in a mostly-single-target encounter, MCH tends to be even to a bit ahead in contributed DPS, depending on the uptime/downtime rhythm*. BRD gains ground when there are 2+ high HP targets for some portion of a fight. MCH-friendly fights are historically more common, it just didn't happen that way this time around.

*By "rhythm", I mean that when uptimes are short with a lot of jumps, complex mechanics, etc. MCH does well (and Foe often gets worse). With longer uptimes, MCH spends more time attacking sans-cooldowns, at which it can be depressingly weak. SE is looking to address that latter point specifically.

[Ephier]

There are two relevant encounters in 3.1 that favor BRD, and one that favors MCH. On the other two (the hardest two) fights, the classes are roughly even.

Which encounters would those be? Because there is not a single fight in the current end game where MCH will beat a BRD.

People really need to stop down playing the fact that MCH is pretty much on the bottom of the totem pole, hence the buff. I main MCH and I know there is no benefit that a MCH currently brings that a BRD can not do. Hypercharge for the melee is made up for with the BRDs higher personal DPS. Foes is the point where they just blow MCH out the water.

[lulunami]

Which encounters would those be? Because there is not a single fight in the current end game where MCH will beat a BRD.

People really need to stop down playing the fact that MCH is pretty much on the bottom of the totem pole, hence the buff. I main MCH and I know there is no benefit that a MCH currently brings that a BRD can not do. Hypercharge for the melee is made up for with the BRDs higher personal DPS. Foes is the point where they just blow MCH out the water.

Maybe A4S is the encounter that MCH is better than BRD at ilvl210.

[aabe]

.

the jobs are close enough as-is that you will not notice a difference unless you do very early progression and even then you'll probably have to be gunning for server first/world rank and i'm pretty sure that applies to next to nobody that actively uses this forum and posts here

it's almost like you can just play what you have more fun with and stop caring

[Ephier]

Maybe A4S is the encounter that MCH is better than BRD at ilvl210.

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...spec=Machinist

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...obal&spec=Bard

No?

the jobs are close enough as-is that you will not notice a difference unless you do very early progression and even then you'll probably have to be gunning for server first/world rank and i'm pretty sure that applies to next to nobody that actively uses this forum and posts here

it's almost like you can just play what you have more fun with and stop caring

I was unaware that a 90 DPS MINIMUM difference in DPS was small. Some people play the class to have fun, and that is fine. But for end game players who actually care about their numbers and small minor things such as proc timings, BRD is just out right better than MCH currently.

Also, you have a few end game players who regularly post on the forums.

[LegoTechnic]

MCH is a weird class, because it's high-risk for its rewards. A lot of its best stuff is during the wildfire rotation, and if you botch wildfire due to mechanic timing that's a notable impact. Additionally while they have good support, BRD's equivalent is simply easier to work with. Turret range is fairly limited, and in a fight like A3S or A4S where you have a lot of spacing for sprays, digititus, sluice, carnage zero, nisi, etc then turret regen really loses appeal. Hypercharge is nice, but again it's just not as versatile as foes due to its lengthy cooldown. Thus while MCH can do a lot of similar things that BRD can, it's more restrictive in regards to positioning and timing.

Even if MCH and BRD DPS is equivalent, BRD does almost everything else better, so it's hard for MCH to set itself apart. This is especially true with its very RNG nature of proc-watch damage, which can be a little awkward while waiting for cooldowns to come up. Perhaps if a t9 or t7 add mechanic appears where knockback or bind become viable they'll fall into a superior kite role, but right now they're just an alternative to BRD that's a little harder to play for little to no extra benefit.

[Kuwagami]

With the planned lb changes, you probably won't see a triple melee setup anymore.

Why not ? a MCH/NIN/DRG/MNK setting is still possible with the new LB system

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...spec=Machinist

http://www.fflogs.com/rankings/7#bos...obal&spec=Bard

No?




I was unaware that a 90 DPS MINIMUM difference in DPS was small. Some people play the class to have fun, and that is fine. But for end game players who actually care about their numbers and small minor things such as proc timings, BRD is just out right better than MCH currently.

Also, you have a few end game players who regularly post on the forums.

yeah yeah.

What's fun with numbers, is that they totally ignore context. FFxiv is a group based game. Individual numbers don't mean anything.

[Ephier]

Individual numbers don't mean anything.

I think my head just exploded. Individual numbers mean a lot. If you yourself are not contributing, then you are a shackle for your group. Picking up as much slack on your side as you can will help alleviate issues on other things. I don't think people really understand that DPS makes the game go' round. Faster DPS means less damage taken, which means less healing needing to be done, which means resources do not need to be as heavily used. Individual DPS is just as important as caring for the group. Its when you cannot balance the two is when it becomes a problem.