Machinist and Bard after 3.2

[Danatoth]

With the upcoming changes to MCH in 3.2, will this change anything for the debate of BRD vs MCH?

To my knowledge, MCH isn't just thought of as second tier only due to their sub par dps, but also due to their complexity comparatively to bard.

What do you guys think? Would you rather have a knowledgeable bard, or a knowledgeable machinist in your group?

I currently have my MCH to 45 and it feels quite clunky. Waiting for procs, having to blow everything at once to do any dps during 1 damage skill (wildfire) and having to place down turrets. It's a lot of work for the same effects as a bard.

[Ephier]

We will know nothing until patch notes come out.

[Mimilu]

I don't think so.
I remember when AST got a buff, a bunch of people said things like WHM would be obsolete and AST's shields would be better then SCH's... >w>
Those were the days. =w=

[Cabalabob]

MCH more has a place in a heavy melee setup, if you have lots of mages BRD trumps MCH completely cause 10% magic damage with the option to make it 20% during bursts vs 5% on a 2 min cooldown for 20 seconds with no option to increase it, there's just no contest, but BRD has no physical equivalent while MCH does.

Problem is people generally go for a mixed setup of mages and melee but can only have 1 support so BRD wins cause 10-20% of one type of damage tops 5% of either type.

So MCH, having weaker support, should really have higher personal DPS to make up for it. But as it is right now they are on par with BRD if not worse.

[RiceisNice]

MCH more has a place in a heavy melee setup, if you have lots of mages BRD trumps MCH completely...

Problem is people generally go for a mixed setup of mages and melee but can only have 1 support so BRD wins cause 10-20% of one type of damage tops 5% of either type.

So MCH, having weaker support, should really have higher personal DPS to make up for it. But as it is right now they are on par with BRD if not worse.

With the planned lb changes, you probably won't see a triple melee setup anymore. Even with 2 melee/1 caster, brd will stil win out because of foe affecting healers, and mch has no answer for rain of death.

Bard also scales much better from gear stats, so mch needs some good changes in almost all areas to be on comparable footing

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

With the planned lb changes, you probably won't see a triple melee setup anymore. Even with 2 melee/1 caster, brd will stil win out because of foe affecting healers

How come tanks aren't included here? :P

[Cabalabob]

How come tanks aren't included here? :P

Cause 1 Mage + 2 healers + 1 BRD = 30-60% magic damage increase.
2 melee and 2 tanks + 1 MCH = 25% physical increase for a shorter amount of time.

Let alone a 2 mages 1 melee setup.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Cause 1 Mage + 2 healers + 1 BRD = 30-60% magic damage increase.
2 melee and 2 tanks + 1 MCH = 25% physical increase for a shorter amount of time.

Let alone a 2 mages 1 melee setup.

Healers aren't permanently in Cleric Stance as long Foe is up. Or one at most for the duration. Tanks, on the other hand, are constantly putting out their own damage to do their own job. Then there's also the thing that the (de)buffing effects are multiplicative. This also applies to Foe's, of course. But physical DPS jobs and most tanks (ie: not Paladins) have a near-permanent damage modifier: Maim, Darkside, Greased Lightning, Rogue poisons etc. I'm not arguing that Machinist's Hypercharge is better or worse than Foe's, mind you. But it's missing out on some credit whenever it's being compared to Foe alone. Especially when the comparison has holes in it like not including tanks, but including healers.

[Tharian]

Cause 1 Mage + 2 healers + 1 BRD = 30-60% magic damage increase.
2 melee and 2 tanks + 1 MCH = 25% physical increase for a shorter amount of time.

Let alone a 2 mages 1 melee setup.

Except for the fact that both healers are almost certainly not both casting damaging spells 100% of the time simultaneously. Additionally is the fact that Foe's Requiem does not affect the attacks made by the Bard themselves... so what you are really looking at is as follows:

1 Mage + 2 Healers + 1 Bard = 10-30% Magic Damage Increase (this increases to 20-60% when Battle Voice is in use)
2 Melee + 2 Tanks + 1 Machinist = a Static 25% Physical Damage Increase

Most Parties however will be built something like this:

2 Tanks + 2 Healers + 2 Melee + 1 Mage + 1 Bard / Machinist

So your max damage increase is really dependent on which you get, and you will almost universally be getting one or the other, not both.

Occassionally you will get parties built as follows:

2 Tanks + 2 Healers + 1 Melee + 1 Mage + 1 Bard + 1 Machinist = 10-30% Magic Damage Increase & +25% Physical Damage Increase

Strictly speaking, this is probably the most optimal set-up that you could end up with, even if Bard and Machinist do sub-par damage compared to the melee classes in the game. They do both however do physical damage, and thus both benefit from the Machinist's Hypercharge buff.

NOTATION: Please note I was not including any buffs except those granted by Foe's Requiem and Hypercharge when making these calculations, as those other buffs tend to throw the math completely up in the air.

[Danatoth]

So I'd like to ask a follow up question - coming from a new player to Heavensward, but a long time mmo vet. Once I get to max level it seems to me (according to the party finder) that groups are easy to be found as a Bard or a Machinist. But if I'm looking to get into a static, do you think I'll be forced to reroll as bard? Or are MCH not quite as bad as everyone makes them out to be?