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  1. #1
    Player
    MiniTyra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Posts
    125
    Character
    Mini Tyra
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Living Liquid, off the top of my head is, what? 4.3m HP? Add Phase rips off 8% of his HP. The entire phase from the first set of Pistons until Living Liquid is targettable again lasts 92.5 seconds.


    4300000 * 8% = 344000 Damage.

    This is a timed phase. No matter how many buffs you use, no matter how many crits you get (you may get lucky), it's still, always, 344000 damage in 92.5 seconds which the raid must execute. Even if you complete the entire phase in 95 seconds, that's 7 seconds of you not doing anything, waiting for Living Liquid to spawn and that's 7 seconds being added to your eDPS. Yeah, maybe you can hit higher numbers and kill the adds faster and maybe your damage in proportion to everyone else in the raid is higher, as you're "eating" damage they could of inflicted, but it seems like such a waste.

    Also, remember that most buffs are multiplicative. So if you have a Trick Attack, a Blood for Blood and a Potion, (Drac-Pot in raid is a 1.0945 multiplier), instead of receiving a combined raid buff of 1.1 + 1.3 + 1.0945 (1.4945) separately, using them all together yields 1.1 * 1.3 * 1.0945 = 1.565135 multiplier instead, It just so happens that directly after the add Phase, you get every single one of your buffs ready and available. Coupled with an IR and a BL, you're essentially redoing your opener. You could even delay your opener, using BotD on the cascade and generating more BOTD Timer, then using all the buffs on the ferrofluid, allowing you to get x2 BFB + POT + IR + BL GKs, if timed correctly.

    Maybe it's because I'm coming from a progression mindset... Having all buffs being used together, multiplicatively, along with synchronised BLs + Fey w/e it's called just seems... Better?. That's my mindset of buff usage at least.
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  2. #2
    Player JackFross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    680
    Character
    Eve Malqir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by MiniTyra View Post
    Maybe it's because I'm coming from a progression mindset... Having all buffs being used together, multiplicatively, along with synchronised BLs + Fey w/e it's called just seems... Better?. That's my mindset of buff usage at least.
    Yeah, it honestly comes down to personal dps versus raid dps. In the post-progression landscape we're in, personal dps is all that really matters, imo, since the raid's dps should already be more than good enough to down the content. Using the stuff on cooldown, regardless of whether or not it modifies kill time, (generally) will result in a better parse than if you hold it to stack buffs later.

    It's the same reason Dragoons don't hold B4B for the Hand of Pain check anymore. We don't need that additional damage to clear it, now, so there's no real reason to do it.
    (0)

  3. #3
    Player
    Sleigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,563
    Character
    Philia Felice
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by JackFross View Post
    Yeah, it honestly comes down to personal dps versus raid dps. In the post-progression landscape we're in, personal dps is all that really matters, imo, since the raid's dps should already be more than good enough to down the content. Using the stuff on cooldown, regardless of whether or not it modifies kill time, (generally) will result in a better parse than if you hold it to stack buffs later.

    It's the same reason Dragoons don't hold B4B for the Hand of Pain check anymore. We don't need that additional damage to clear it, now, so there's no real reason to do it.
    You must have a different definition of raid DPS than me. Raid DPS, or rather effective raid DPS (case in point, A3S's add phase where sacrificing some personal DPS = higher boss DPS) is still the most important thing, pre, mid, and post progression. You shouldn't care about personal DPS that hinders the raid, that should never be your goal unless you're just fflogs chasing.
    (1)

  4. #4
    Player JackFross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    680
    Character
    Eve Malqir
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Sleigh View Post
    You must have a different definition of raid DPS than me. Raid DPS, or rather effective raid DPS (case in point, A3S's add phase where sacrificing some personal DPS = higher boss DPS) is still the most important thing, pre, mid, and post progression. You shouldn't care about personal DPS that hinders the raid, that should never be your goal unless you're just fflogs chasing.
    I worded it poorly, but the essential thing is that pushing cooldowns around and having fewer overall casts of your buffs is a net loss in raid dps for the fight. If you can safely shift a cooldown to bolster your dps (and by extension the raid's dps) while still meeting every check in the fight, there's really no reason not to. If you're in a group where the hand of pain check is still difficult, and you staunchly refuse to shift your B4B to that spot so you can clear the check consistently, you're being a shit. On the flip side, if your raid dps *is* high enough that you consistently clear that dps check without you holding B4B for it, you shouldn't hold it. You're sacrificing raid (and personal) dps to pad a check that you already clear with ease.

    And the add phase B4B - If I get the same amount of casts of B4B and BL in the final phase as any other dragoon (including having B4B come off cooldown ~5-10s before the second hand spawns), why should I be holding my buffs and hindering my own performance on the fight overall? It doesn't change the outcome, doesn't make the fight any harder to clear, it just boosts overall raid dps by padding my own numbers higher.

    Using Battle Litany at different times only boosts raid dps if you stack your buffs there, and my group has proven without a doubt that holding buffs to coordinate BL at a certain point gives a net DECREASE in raid dps compared to everyone just doing their thing. One raid night in A4S, we decided to try and boost our third leg dps by coordinating all cooldowns and potions to be used after the dolls are fed and everyone is in full dps up-time. We were consistently 7% to 10% slow on the leg. We reverted to our original strategy (where I open on the leg with BL+B4B+IR+BotD+Potion before the add spawns) and we killed the leg 7+ seconds fast on every attempt without changing anything else in the strat. Maybe it was us being shit? Maybe it was because we limited ourselves to 1 Trick Attack on the leg instead of our usual 2? I dunno. Really turned me off on the idea of sacrificing personal dps for raid dps when that happened.
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