Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Belhi]

I'm not talking about a honeymoon period, though. I'm talking about specific complaints from people about specific content that they find to be repeated over and over, patch after patch, without variation (beyond what it's called), even straight into 3.0. That's not "honeymoon" period. That's people saying "Okay, we've had 1-2 years of this now, and it's becoming tiresome. Can you give us something new and different next?"

You talked about the support they had at 2.0. That is called a honeymoon period. It is right after launch when everything is new and shiny. It happens with almost every new game I've played. Viewpoints naturally change as a game matures and people start to question aspects of the game that don't necessarily meet their personal expectations. That has also happened in every game Ive played.

Err... I'm not asking for FF11 2.0. Neither is anyone else, from what I've seen.

People have given specific examples of systems that FFXI had, which were fun, varied and interesting, and provided additional ways to obtain gear, aside from other means which already existed. We're saying "Hey, here's some interesting ideas they implemented in this other game, and people tended to enjoy them. Maybe you can adapt something like that to FFXIV as well, and give us more options, and ways to obtain equipment".

The desired result here is "More Variety".

AnimaAnimus summarizes it nicely in the first sentence of this post.

There's a vast difference between that, and simply wanting FF11 2.0. Please don't conflate the two.

More variety can be good. I certainly agree FF14 could benefit from more. However I would make two points.

First is that not everything people remember from FF11 will integrate well into FF14 systems. Its not the same engine and its not the same game. Alternately a lot of those ideas would likely take a lot of time and effort to implement anyway so if this is the case and they can do it you are very unlikely to see anything till 4.0 at the earliest. Anything more is probably being unrealistic on the amount of work such implementations would take.

Secondly, fun is relative. What you find fun others won't. One thing that is definitely true of players is they have very varying tastes.

I might also point out that the Diadem was them attempting some thing new so its not like they aren't trying anything. Sure it was a complete flop but they tried.

Nothing of what you just said is necessarily tied into horizontal progression. What you're describing is more Min-Maxing behavior, and that exists in any MMO where numbers are in play.

Put another way, people pull out calculators and fuss over every last digit, or the specific order of their rotations, etc, in this game. They use parsers to gauge how well they're doing, or where they have to improve to hit their absolute best numbers.... and this game most certainly doesn't have horizontal progression.

You don't have to min-max in a MMO with horizontal progression, either. I never did, in XI or any other MMO I've played. It's a choice of play style.

When I play a class I want it to work. I don't want to have to look up correct build or screw around trying to find ones that work. I want to pick something and play content with it and know that I haven't made any bad choices. I hate build experimenting. I hate trying to have to figure out what works well. I don't like playing dud, if novel, builds.

This happens in a lot of MMOs I've played with Horizontal progression. I just want to pick something and play it and know it plays well.

And if I need to look up websites to see what is works then in my view the game is flawed.

That's not min/maxing. There is a difference in playing a class how it is designed to be played and screwing around with builds trying to get something that works. Horizontal progression almost always ends up with builds that are bad or wrong. If they can exist in a game I have issue with it. That for me is poor design.

Agreed, and SE seems to be falling into that trap (again).

They seem more in touch with player concerns than most devs in the industry. The fact they addressed many peoples loudest concerns in the last live letter is a sign of that.

I certainly hope what we've seen from SE with this game does not represent the extent, or even close, of what they're capable of thinking up or implementing. If so, then, well... my concerns are even more valid.

I specifically refer to the fact that most players have little to know understanding of what is possible with game design or what potential issues can hamper it. That's not necessarily an issue with imagination. It can be an issue with engine limitations or available resources.

No more flawed than assuming the majority doesn't share their views. Further, at no point have I ever claimed to speak for a majority here.

The point is, there's a large number of people in the FFXIV community who have been voicing the same concerns, in myriad places and formats. The concerns are there. And that's just the ones openly speaking about it. I've seen plenty of people saying similar things in FC and Party chat, or even in the chat of other games I play. They're not here on the forums saying it, but they still feel that way.

Sure and their views are very valid. However rarely do people think their issues and views are in the minority and frankly the way you worded your original comments that I quoted seem to suggest you believed you were in the majority. Truth is though there is no way anyone can really do more than say what they personally feel. Speaking on behalf of community sentiment without any solid quantitive proof that your view is a match for it is flawed.

Are you presuming to speak for Yoshida? I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

And, he has absolutely said "nope", to a number of things, in Q&As, in Live Letters, in interviews, etc. Reasons he's given have ranged from "he's afraid it would stress out the players" to "it's not how he envisions people playing the game", and various other rather weak (IMO) explanations. Regardless of his explanation, the answer still amounts to "Nope".

I'm not talking for him. Im am pretty much repeating the gist of what he said in an interview only a few weeks back. In fact, the 'I would add an new Job over an alternative way of playing the same Job' is almost a direct quote. As he said, they require about the same amount of resources to implement and balance.

Well, again, per your explanation above, you seem to be conflating "min-maxing" with "horizontal progression", and the two are not at all the same, nor are they even mutually exclusive. Min-maxing exists in any MMO, regardless of what progression model it uses.

I'm not talking about min/maxing and I know very well the difference. Im talking about the increased complexity horizontal progression often adds and the fact it can lead to situations where you can make 'wrong' builds. There is a big difference in playing a Job properly and having to construct that Job in a fashion that works well. I'm not new to horizontal progression.

And from your other response to me...

Yes, when you cherry-pick that bit by itself, and quote it out of context, it would sound pretty bad.

If you're going to quote me and then respond, please have the courtesy of quoting everything, and not just the bit you want to pick apart. Thank you.

I quoted the most relevant part for my response. Are you saying that the rest of the post had context that changed the essence of what you said? If I quoted the whole thing my response would pretty much be the same.

I hate that type of set up in MMOs. I hate situations with 'wrong' builds. I want something that works and works well and that I don't need to screw around looking things up to figure out how to put together. I don't care what others think about my build or if I get kicked. I care about my feeling towards the build. Its complexity I don't want.