Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Preypacer]

All games go through a Honeymoon period. Almost every game I have played had it. For the first month or two when Wildstar launched people were talking about it being the best game ever. Clearly since the game almost tanked that wasn't the case.

I'm not talking about a honeymoon period, though. I'm talking about specific complaints from people about specific content that they find to be repeated over and over, patch after patch, without variation (beyond what it's called), even straight into 3.0. That's not "honeymoon" period. That's people saying "Okay, we've had 1-2 years of this now, and it's becoming tiresome. Can you give us something new and different next?"

FF14 isn't FF11 2.0. Its not going to be FF11 2.0. Wether that is a good or bad thing is beside the point. They aren't going to reinvent the wheel at this point. That's just an unrealistic quantity of work. Sure they could allow more than they have now but its not going to be a massive overhaul regardless.

Err... I'm not asking for FF11 2.0. Neither is anyone else, from what I've seen.

People have given specific examples of systems that FFXI had, which were fun, varied and interesting, and provided additional ways to obtain gear, aside from other means which already existed. We're saying "Hey, here's some interesting ideas they implemented in this other game, and people tended to enjoy them. Maybe you can adapt something like that to FFXIV as well, and give us more options, and ways to obtain equipment".

The desired result here is "More Variety".

AnimaAnimus summarizes it nicely in the first sentence of this post.

There's a vast difference between that, and simply wanting FF11 2.0. Please don't conflate the two.

Personally I find most horizontal progression models become annoying and problematic. I don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking builds to try and find something that works. I hate having to look up guides to figure out how to make a good character, particularly if they are third party. If there is a bad option then I'm of the view that option shouldn't exist other wise its just annoying. I want to play the game, not screw around with a calculator trying to figure out optimal builds. I hate having to have multiple gear sets for different situations and I hate having to get out a calculator to figure out if a new piece of gear with a special stat is better than what I already have.

Nothing of what you just said is necessarily tied into horizontal progression. What you're describing is more Min-Maxing behavior, and that exists in any MMO where numbers are in play.

Put another way, people pull out calculators and fuss over every last digit, or the specific order of their rotations, etc, in this game. They use parsers to gauge how well they're doing, or where they have to improve to hit their absolute best numbers.... and this game most certainly doesn't have horizontal progression.

You don't have to min-max in a MMO with horizontal progression, either. I never did, in XI or any other MMO I've played. It's a choice of play style.

There is a 'what's best for players' trap that developers can fall into when designing games and that is a serious issue.

Agreed, and SE seems to be falling into that trap (again).

There is also a 'we understand what is feasible in building a game' trap that players can fall into when it comes to their expectations of what devs can and will do.

I certainly hope what we've seen from SE with this game does not represent the extent, or even close, of what they're capable of thinking up or implementing. If so, then, well... my concerns are even more valid.

There is also a habit of people assuming that the majority shares their view. Without accurate metrics this is often a flawed assumption.

No more flawed than assuming the majority doesn't share their views. Further, at no point have I ever claimed to speak for a majority here.

The point is, there's a large number of people in the FFXIV community who have been voicing the same concerns, in myriad places and formats. The concerns are there. And that's just the ones openly speaking about it. I've seen plenty of people saying similar things in FC and Party chat, or even in the chat of other games I play. They're not here on the forums saying it, but they still feel that way.

More over Yoshi P isn't simply saying nope. He by allowing people to play a large number of different Jobs they allow a variety of play styles through that and rather than try and build different versions of the same job it would make more sense to him to spend the resources on building an entirely new Job that felt different again and so felt like a real alternative.

Are you presuming to speak for Yoshida? I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

And, he has absolutely said "nope", to a number of things, in Q&As, in Live Letters, in interviews, etc. Reasons he's given have ranged from "he's afraid it would stress out the players" to "it's not how he envisions people playing the game", and various other rather weak (IMO) explanations. Regardless of his explanation, the answer still amounts to "Nope".

Now I'm not completely against Horizontal progression but from what I have heard of FF11, I don't think I want to see FF14 end up like that.

Well, again, per your explanation above, you seem to be conflating "min-maxing" with "horizontal progression", and the two are not at all the same, nor are they even mutually exclusive. Min-maxing exists in any MMO, regardless of what progression model it uses.


And from your other response to me...

Gah!

That sounds even worse. That's one of the reasons I left GW2. I want to play the game content, not screw around with builds.

Yes, when you cherry-pick that bit by itself, and quote it out of context, it would sound pretty bad.

If you're going to quote me and then respond, please have the courtesy of quoting everything, and not just the bit you want to pick apart. Thank you.

[Belhi]

I'm not talking about a honeymoon period, though. I'm talking about specific complaints from people about specific content that they find to be repeated over and over, patch after patch, without variation (beyond what it's called), even straight into 3.0. That's not "honeymoon" period. That's people saying "Okay, we've had 1-2 years of this now, and it's becoming tiresome. Can you give us something new and different next?"

You talked about the support they had at 2.0. That is called a honeymoon period. It is right after launch when everything is new and shiny. It happens with almost every new game I've played. Viewpoints naturally change as a game matures and people start to question aspects of the game that don't necessarily meet their personal expectations. That has also happened in every game Ive played.

Err... I'm not asking for FF11 2.0. Neither is anyone else, from what I've seen.

People have given specific examples of systems that FFXI had, which were fun, varied and interesting, and provided additional ways to obtain gear, aside from other means which already existed. We're saying "Hey, here's some interesting ideas they implemented in this other game, and people tended to enjoy them. Maybe you can adapt something like that to FFXIV as well, and give us more options, and ways to obtain equipment".

The desired result here is "More Variety".

AnimaAnimus summarizes it nicely in the first sentence of this post.

There's a vast difference between that, and simply wanting FF11 2.0. Please don't conflate the two.

More variety can be good. I certainly agree FF14 could benefit from more. However I would make two points.

First is that not everything people remember from FF11 will integrate well into FF14 systems. Its not the same engine and its not the same game. Alternately a lot of those ideas would likely take a lot of time and effort to implement anyway so if this is the case and they can do it you are very unlikely to see anything till 4.0 at the earliest. Anything more is probably being unrealistic on the amount of work such implementations would take.

Secondly, fun is relative. What you find fun others won't. One thing that is definitely true of players is they have very varying tastes.

I might also point out that the Diadem was them attempting some thing new so its not like they aren't trying anything. Sure it was a complete flop but they tried.

Nothing of what you just said is necessarily tied into horizontal progression. What you're describing is more Min-Maxing behavior, and that exists in any MMO where numbers are in play.

Put another way, people pull out calculators and fuss over every last digit, or the specific order of their rotations, etc, in this game. They use parsers to gauge how well they're doing, or where they have to improve to hit their absolute best numbers.... and this game most certainly doesn't have horizontal progression.

You don't have to min-max in a MMO with horizontal progression, either. I never did, in XI or any other MMO I've played. It's a choice of play style.

When I play a class I want it to work. I don't want to have to look up correct build or screw around trying to find ones that work. I want to pick something and play content with it and know that I haven't made any bad choices. I hate build experimenting. I hate trying to have to figure out what works well. I don't like playing dud, if novel, builds.

This happens in a lot of MMOs I've played with Horizontal progression. I just want to pick something and play it and know it plays well.

And if I need to look up websites to see what is works then in my view the game is flawed.

That's not min/maxing. There is a difference in playing a class how it is designed to be played and screwing around with builds trying to get something that works. Horizontal progression almost always ends up with builds that are bad or wrong. If they can exist in a game I have issue with it. That for me is poor design.

Agreed, and SE seems to be falling into that trap (again).

They seem more in touch with player concerns than most devs in the industry. The fact they addressed many peoples loudest concerns in the last live letter is a sign of that.

I certainly hope what we've seen from SE with this game does not represent the extent, or even close, of what they're capable of thinking up or implementing. If so, then, well... my concerns are even more valid.

I specifically refer to the fact that most players have little to know understanding of what is possible with game design or what potential issues can hamper it. That's not necessarily an issue with imagination. It can be an issue with engine limitations or available resources.

No more flawed than assuming the majority doesn't share their views. Further, at no point have I ever claimed to speak for a majority here.

The point is, there's a large number of people in the FFXIV community who have been voicing the same concerns, in myriad places and formats. The concerns are there. And that's just the ones openly speaking about it. I've seen plenty of people saying similar things in FC and Party chat, or even in the chat of other games I play. They're not here on the forums saying it, but they still feel that way.

Sure and their views are very valid. However rarely do people think their issues and views are in the minority and frankly the way you worded your original comments that I quoted seem to suggest you believed you were in the majority. Truth is though there is no way anyone can really do more than say what they personally feel. Speaking on behalf of community sentiment without any solid quantitive proof that your view is a match for it is flawed.

Are you presuming to speak for Yoshida? I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

And, he has absolutely said "nope", to a number of things, in Q&As, in Live Letters, in interviews, etc. Reasons he's given have ranged from "he's afraid it would stress out the players" to "it's not how he envisions people playing the game", and various other rather weak (IMO) explanations. Regardless of his explanation, the answer still amounts to "Nope".

I'm not talking for him. Im am pretty much repeating the gist of what he said in an interview only a few weeks back. In fact, the 'I would add an new Job over an alternative way of playing the same Job' is almost a direct quote. As he said, they require about the same amount of resources to implement and balance.

Well, again, per your explanation above, you seem to be conflating "min-maxing" with "horizontal progression", and the two are not at all the same, nor are they even mutually exclusive. Min-maxing exists in any MMO, regardless of what progression model it uses.

I'm not talking about min/maxing and I know very well the difference. Im talking about the increased complexity horizontal progression often adds and the fact it can lead to situations where you can make 'wrong' builds. There is a big difference in playing a Job properly and having to construct that Job in a fashion that works well. I'm not new to horizontal progression.

And from your other response to me...

Yes, when you cherry-pick that bit by itself, and quote it out of context, it would sound pretty bad.

If you're going to quote me and then respond, please have the courtesy of quoting everything, and not just the bit you want to pick apart. Thank you.

I quoted the most relevant part for my response. Are you saying that the rest of the post had context that changed the essence of what you said? If I quoted the whole thing my response would pretty much be the same.

I hate that type of set up in MMOs. I hate situations with 'wrong' builds. I want something that works and works well and that I don't need to screw around looking things up to figure out how to put together. I don't care what others think about my build or if I get kicked. I care about my feeling towards the build. Its complexity I don't want.

[FoxyAreku]

Make this game have more than three semi-boring secondary stats per role then maybe I'll care about a chance at horizontal progression.

[Alahra]

Make this game have more than three semi-boring secondary stats per role then maybe I'll care about a chance at horizontal progression.

Yes. I think before they do anything, they need to diversify the stats and gear enhancements within the parameters that are already established. For any sort of "horizontal progression" to work, we need more varied choices to begin with so that there are more potential combinations for people to work toward. As it is right now, we have just about all the horizontal aspects the game can handle, as the only stat that is useful in some content but not preferred in others is Accuracy.

True, FFXI style horizontal progression stretched out over long periods of time is never going to get here, but it's possible that we can see some horizontal aspects if they work on expanding the scope of gear itself with things like additional stats, set bonuses, and the like. From there, it might be possible to have slightly longer raid tiers (say, 9 months as opposed to 6 months) with more bosses per raid so that the content can last longer and allow for more gear sets each tier to be released.

I don't think any of that's particularly likely (or that it would necessarily be a good thing), but I think the possibility for something like it exists.

[Gunspec]

Horizontal progression to me is either "this gear is similar enough to my current gear that I don't care about it" or "this gear has a new stat on it (ie. Ice resistance) that is needed for new content, so I have to collect it and hold on to it indefinitely if I want to fight Shiva and other ice enemies".

Either way, it isn't going to be enough to make me bother with new gear every 6 months. If you absolutely NEED the new gear (the same ilevel as your old gear), then it isn't any different than the current system. The only exception is that within the current system you can safely discard old gear every 6 months, but with horizontal progression you'd need to horde multiple sets. We have enough inventory problems as it is.

[Seraphix2407]

While I don't like the blandness of doing 2 dungeons for months on end only to get gear that will become obsolete in ~3 months...

That's one of the main reason's why I stopped liking the game so much. Not only you doing savage and get better gear, but it's not even usefull after you done all 4 raids, because the content after it, which is the other fights, dungeons or even the patch after, which is usually a catch up patch, doesn't even require the gear, it's all about e-peen etc once you got the higher tier gear. The tome gear lockout is just weird and stupid too imo.

[Andrea]

I wouldn't expect things to change. They have shown that they are fine playing it safe rather than try to make new and interesting concepts.

The game is the same as it is now as it will be come 4.0. A tomestone to grind under a new name, 2 dungeons, a trial and something else that most likely will be abandoned come the next patch (e.g LoV, Chocobo racing ect Hell even diadem is almost a ghost town on most servers).

I'll be honest, I enjoy playing the game but I've come to terms with the fact things most likely will sadly never change.

[Sylkis]

It's not that I disagree with the premise entirely... but rather I can't help but ask the obvious question that comes out of it.
"If not this, then what?"
What else is there? I'm no game designer, I dunno how this stuff works. What would be a better system, and can you point to some examples where it worked?

An example of horizontal progression currently used is the different jobs within the same role and the ability to switch between them. Each job requires time to be leveled up to max level before they can be used. For example: PLD, WAR and DRK can all be used to tank. Each job requires time to level up, and is stronger in different fights. WAR excels in dps, PLD in physical mitigation, DRK in magical mitigation. All can be viable tanks, but some are better in certain situations.


Similarly, you can have different items that have vastly different stats but ultimately serve the same role. There will be ones that are optimal for certain situations - this is the most common argument against it. For example, you could have 3 different shields with say 30VIT and 30STR and one additional stat. On top of those stats, one of the shields increases your damage, another has increased block and the last one reduces magic damage taken. People would work out that it is best to use shield A in fight X, shield B in fight Y and shield C in fight Z. But, all would suffice as a shield.

However, if one does not have the ability or time to obtain all the different items, the system would work out. The illusion of choice argument is only if you have access to all the different options so you can simply choose the best one.
What if you only had shield A and B but you were going to fight Z? Is shield A or B the 2nd best? There is probably an answer to that. But if there was no ilvl so you had 20 shields to choose from (only these exist in the game minus leveling phase), or you have a mixed system where there are say 3 shields to choose from per ilvl tier, the answer won't be clear. Perhaps a shield from the previous ilvl tier is better when you don't have shield C for fight Z (This actually happened to the bard body from WoD, an ilvl120 piece which was considered better than other ilvl130 pieces)

Perhaps the shields could suit different playstyles (I'm getting a bit too hopeful here) - you might gear yourself to deal a lot more damage and have 4.5 dps members in your 8 man party, but your mitigation will be low. Or you might go full mitigation and make it possible to solo tank in 8 man fights (or at least semi solo tank - skipping some tank swaps or tanking some of the adds meant for the 2nd tank).


Another example of horizontal progression, which is actually in the game is the current tier of crafting gear (ignoring specialisation...that is NOT horizontal progression but a restriction). Each class has a class specific set of gear that is the best you can get, but you cannot use it on another class. Additionally, there is a set of crafted + melded gear which can be used by any class, but is inferior in stats. You cannot obtain all the class specific gear within a reasonable amount of time (1 year), so you must choose. However, the crafted + melded gear is sufficient (this is key - otherwise it becomes a restriction like specialisation) for any craft (to my current knowledge it is), but it is difficult - you might need FC buffs, food, luck etc.

[Gunspec]

But if there was no ilvl so you had 20 shields to choose from

"I felt a great disturbance in the Echo, as if millions of retainers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

[Sylkis]

"I felt a great disturbance in the Echo, as if millions of retainers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

There would be only 20 shields (minus the ones used in leveling up) in the whole game up until now, as an example. So 20 (endgame) shields since 2013. And most importantly, you can't have them all but you have some to choose from (unless you are someone who actually farms relics for all jobs)