Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Alahra]

Having all these gearsets just lead to a bloated inventory and way more items that you needed to be good at the game.

Bloated is beyond kind. Back before they finally gave us expanded inventory options (FFXI now gives you the equivalent of like 5 armory chests >.>), I only had like 3 spaces in my inventory to actually receive drops because I carted around so much gear for NIN. Given that this game already has massive inventory problems, there's no way at present any sort of "gear for different situations" thing could really work. They'd likely have to at least triple the size of the armory chest just to start (if you assume like 3 sets of gear per job).

[Xtrasweettea]

[...]Also in FFXI people were very picky about joining parties if you didn't have a reilc/mythic/empyrean weapon you would not be allowed to join the group. .

This part isn't necessarily 100% true. The only time I have seen the demand for "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was towards the end of the life cycle for Voidwatch and when people where shouting for farming groups in Seekers zones. This demand did not come in any other era of the game when I played (I stopped playing within the first few months of Seekers).

The "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was a way to filter out the hundreds of Damage Dealers out there. The "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was not applied to Support Jobs or Healers. It was hard enough to find a Bard or Corsair let alone one with a Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean. Only those career Bards had a relic horn and/or the empyrean harp. Half of the bards and healers in FFXI during end of the Voidwatch era were dual boxed by some Damage Dealer player since they couldn't find a bard or healer within their play time.

The "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was a result of the availability of the job market rather than Horizontal Progression. If there were an equal amount of Damage Dealers to Support Jobs, then "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" could applied to all jobs, but that wasn't the reality. The reality was that there was 30 Damage Dealers to 1 Bard, 1/4 Corsair, 1/4 Scholar, or 1/2 Red Mage (that knew how to play the job as Red Mage not as a "Pink Mage"). In order to get those rare support jobs, party leaders have to make it appealing to them. Since a party leader can't send a job application to each interested DD to see if they are skilled, using gear as the filtering mechanism was the best option. Support jobs had the luxury of being picky because of the demand versus availability. Again, this is not the fault of Horizontal progression, rather it was the result from the availability of the job market.

[Zumi]

This part isn't necessarily 100% true. The only time I have seen the demand for "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was towards the end of the life cycle for Voidwatch and when people where shouting for farming groups in Seekers zones. This demand did not come in any other era of the game when I played (I stopped playing within the first few months of Seekers).

The "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was a way to filter out the hundreds of Damage Dealers out there. The "Relic/Mythic/Empyrean only" was not applied to Support Jobs or Healers. It was hard enough to find a Bard or Corsair let alone one with a Relic, Mythic, or Empyrean. Only those career Bards had a relic horn and/or the empyrean harp. Half of the bards and healers in FFXI during end of the Voidwatch era were dual boxed by some Damage Dealer player since they couldn't find a bard or healer within their play time.

It got worse when Delve came out because people started requiring bards to have the empy harp that did 3-4 songs, to get through the zone fast to do all 5 nms and the boss. There was like maybe 4-5 bards per server that had the harp some people did get it for their mules. So they were always getting tells because if they had no empy bard they didn't even want to go cause it meant not being able to do the zone due to having less buffs.

[Seraphix2407]

While I don't like the blandness of doing 2 dungeons for months on end only to get gear that will become obsolete in ~3 months...

That's one of the main reason's why I stopped liking the game so much. Not only you doing savage and get better gear, but it's not even usefull after you done all 4 raids, because the content after it, which is the other fights, dungeons or even the patch after, which is usually a catch up patch, doesn't even require the gear, it's all about e-peen etc once you got the higher tier gear. The tome gear lockout is just weird and stupid too imo.

[Ashkendor]

From the perspective of a new player, they jump from item level 50-ish to item level 120 in the blink of an eye. That's a whopping +70 levels worth of strength. There's no real stop-gaps for them. Sure they could spend the time and farm Philosophy or Relic gear, but why bother when the selfsame dungeons they drop in earn them poetics tomes to buy far superior equipment?

Since you're talking about new players here, I feel like I should point out that the class quests at level 45 and 50 now give out the i90 Philosophy gear in addition to the i50/55 Artifact gear. I believe the MSQ also gives you an i90 weapon (the ones from Primal Focus) and possibly an i110 weapon. As you progress through Heavensward, if you do the MSQ and all of your side quests you can also get entire sets of HQ crafted gear items starting at item level 115 and going all the way to item level 145.

[Duuude007]

Since you're talking about new players here, I feel like I should point out that the class quests at level 45 and 50 now give out the i90 Philosophy gear in addition to the i50/55 Artifact gear. I believe the MSQ also gives you an i90 weapon (the ones from Primal Focus) and possibly an i110 weapon. As you progress through Heavensward, if you do the MSQ and all of your side quests you can also get entire sets of HQ crafted gear items starting at item level 115 and going all the way to item level 145.

I rolled an alt recently, and you get a full i110 set... effortlessly. Explicitly through MSQ.

There is no concern whatsoever about vertical progression.

[Brannigan]

The problem has to do with the capped tomestones coming from dungeons. Because tomestone armor is always higher item level than dungeon armor, the tomestones become the true reward from the dungeon - not whatever you find in the treasure chest at the end. This problem actually got worse with Heavensward, because you can purchase raid-level weapons (ilvl200) without raid drops. The lack of a drop requirement (Unidentified Allagan Tomestone, etc) completely nullified Ravana and Bismark weapons.


The solution, I think, is to rework how tomestones are distributed and what they can buy. First of all, raid level gear should require raiding - whether it's 8 man or 24 man. Secondly, dungeon gear should be a viable entry point to raids. Primal drops should fill the gap along with crafted gear. I think a decent drop setup would look something like

Patch 4.0 hits!

Non-expert dungeons drop their old gear and uncapped tomestones that can be used on crafting materials and gear that prepares you for current experts.
Expert Dungeons should be a bit more difficult than they are now. They drop item level X armor and (weekly capped) dungeon tomestones that can be used to purchase item level X items. Tomestones are meant to mitigate bad RNG and you should be able to cap them after 3-4 runs.
Crafters create tokens that can upgrade Expert Dungeon and Expert Tomestone drops to item level X+10. They use materials from tomestones, drops, and gatherers.
Primals drop item level X+10 weapons and accessories.
8-man raids drop item level X+30 gear and (weekly capped) raid tomestones that can be used to purchase item level X+20 gear. They also drop upgrade materials that turn your raid tomestone gear into X+30. Defeating half of the raid is enough to cap you each week.

Then, patch 4.1 hits

New expert dungeons drop item level X+10 gear and (capped) dungeon tomestones that let you buy X+10
New primal drops item level X+20 weapons
24 man raid drops item level X+20 gear (1/week) that can be upgraded with materials from the 8 man raid to X+30. You can earn raid tomestones from this once per week as well (weekly quest or something), equivalent to defeating half of the 8 man raid.


By doing this I think it'd smooth out the curve a lot. Unfortunately you're left with the problem of "without raid tomestones why should I keep logging in every week?" Really, they just have to create more raid stuff. With more bosses they can make it easier to pug/get into raiding.

It's pretty stupid how right now you just skip every piece of old content entirely. It also leads to a lot of dead on arrival content like Void Ark. No one is doing that shit for the gear - only the upgrade items.

[Belhi]

I think the current system can definitely be improved to work better and create better incentives for players wanting a challenge to remove the advantage high level gear gives by setting the ilvl of all gear to the base level of dungeon, a feature that already exists in the game. A gambit system could also create a higher challenge level for existing content in a reasonable amount of work.

I don't think it needs replacing. Both horizontal progression models and vertical progression models have pros and cons. Overhauling FF14 to be a horizontal progression game would, I suspect be a huge amount of work, and only replace one set of issues with game progression with a different set. The investment in resources to facilitate such a change almost certainly have a detrimental effect on content release and that would have a worse effect on player happiness than the issues with progression do.

[Zojha]

Final Fantasy XIV has a wealth of equipment in the game, and much of it will never see the light of day beyond glamours. Why is this? Because of constant planned obsolescence.

I would disagree here. It is the premise of progression "as such" to make things you have progressed past obsolete. It doesn't matter "how" this progression happens. If you "have" the best option (for a given circumstance), there's no reason to pick anything else (for that circumstance). And there is no reason for players to strive for anything "but" the best option (for a given circumstance).

The current model ensures two things, namely that the most recent content is the most relevant and that progression never comes to a halt. Nothing more, nothing less. Aptly named treadmill after all. The alternative model will commonly produce content that's dead on arrival and allow players to steer themselves into a state of "game over" where there is no further way to progress. The latter model therefore typically relies on insane timesinks in order to push that state further away, as it would mean the player has no further incentive to stay.

That said, it ultimately comes down to preference. I have little issues with the current model, but then again, I play most of the classes and don't always need top of the line equipment, only "just enough" to be able to play the classes in current content at all.

[Saccharin]

Why is this? Because of constant planned obsolescence.

Vertical progression is not necessary bad but it's the amount of content and the 3 month patch cycles.

Every 6 months we get a new 8 man raid that has to have the best gear
Every 6 months we get higher tier tome gear that have to be just slightly less good as the 8 man (savage) gear.
Every 6 months we get a new 24 man that has to have worse gear than the current 8 man (savage).
Every 3 months we get new 'experts' that has to have gear that's not as good as 8 man (savage).

Now we have the diadem that gives 210 gear with very little effort. This was acknowledged as a mistake though.

There's too many ways to gear with very little manoeuvrability with ilevels. Within 3 months the expert can eclipse the 24 man gear.

There needs to be a better plan with regard to gearing and the three month patch cycle.