Why vertical progression is poorly implemented

[Belhi]

/snip

I wont quote the whole post cause otherwise this post will get kind of long. I did not mean to anger or upset you and I'm not going to block you cause I think it is important for different players viewpoints to be discussed to provide good feedback to the developers. I have merely being trying to be civil and polite and honest with my feelings on what I want out of the game.

I will respond with a few points:

First, I have not been trying to put words into your mouth. I have simply been responding as I have interpreted your posts and to try and clarify my own. Case in point is the Honeymoon period point. When you first posted and what I responded to was this:

I remember when 2.0 first launched, this community was rabid in their support and defense of the game. If you even so much as accidentally typed FFXI as a typo, forgetting the V - nevermind deliberately referencing it in some way - you were ripped to shreds. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was around and remembers this. Now? People openly make comparisons to and draw suggestions from FFXI, and not only are they not ripped to shreds, but more people are beginning to agree with them - if for no other reason than to get some new, fresh ideas into this game.

I interpreted that as you meant that at 2.0, when ARR was launched, the community had rabid support. Not that they had had rabid support for a full year. My point was there is always a gradual shift in opinion in every game I played as it ages and players expectations and desires shift.

Secondly, I think we can agree that there is a distinct difference in our preference in what we want out of a character customisation system. The system you seem to talk about would quite likely kill my interest in the game. That's normal. People have different desires and interests and enjoy different games. I don't like games with complicated build systems and I wouldn't want to see FF14 become that.

That said I'm not entirely opposed to some limited customisation. However if it got much more than the current WoW style skill trees I would very quickly become unhappy with it unless by some miracle they created a system with great balance across all possible builds.

Thirdly, while I don't work in software and game design my circle of friends includes quite a coder, a 3d artist, 2 project managers that work in IT and a guy who specialises in QA. While this hasn't made me an expert, listening to them complain about work over beers has given me some insight into how complicated even simple change requests in software can lead to huge and complicated issues.

Further your taking a general statement I said and making it sound like I used it to counter a specific thing you said. I would add to that that something being physically possible to do doesn't necessarily make it feasible to do. Regardless my original point is still very true and valid.

Fourth, I will reference a couple of points from your original post:

I'm finding that to be a very, very common sentiment among people playing this... and that's not a good thing. I'm in that same boat, as are several of my friends.

Well, there's been many, many posts and discussions - here, and elsewhere, on forums, blogs, vlogs, etc - of people asking and openly "hoping" that SE would do something more interesting for the new Relic weapons. People saying "please don't just throw another long, boring grind at us. Give us interesting storylines, epic, unique fights, a fun quest chain, even if it's really difficult".

People ask for more character customization, Yoshi-P says "nope".

And what happened to them listening to the players, something they vowed to do back when they were trying to get our trust back? I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore, because they seem to not only be listening less and less, but saying "No" more and more, whether directly, or through their actions.

Now you might not have intended to give the impression that you were claiming that the majority of people felt the same as you but the way you wrote your post gave me that impression. That's when I post I usually talk about what I want, not what people want.

Fifth, I'm perfectly happy for Yoshi P to be held to what he said, though with the exception that I'm incline to overlook thing he said if I find the reasoning for those things or for changes to them to make sense. Feel free to give examples. All I did was point out he literally talked about the very issue in the last interview he did a couple of weeks ago. You can even find the translation on reddit if you go looking for it.

Finally, Perhaps I should have linked the whole thing rather than that specific part. I was just trying to avoid bloating the post unnecessarily. I did read the whole post and fundamentally even with the full post my response would be the same. I don't like that in games I play. I'm being honest. It is that kind of game design that was a big factor in me not playing GW2 anymore. It would have been dishonest of me to say different.

Simply put I disagree with things you seem to want. I haven't called you names or been rude to you and I have explained why I feel the way I do. I think that is pretty sane and civil.

[Gunspec]

Horizontal progression to me is either "this gear is similar enough to my current gear that I don't care about it" or "this gear has a new stat on it (ie. Ice resistance) that is needed for new content, so I have to collect it and hold on to it indefinitely if I want to fight Shiva and other ice enemies".

Either way, it isn't going to be enough to make me bother with new gear every 6 months. If you absolutely NEED the new gear (the same ilevel as your old gear), then it isn't any different than the current system. The only exception is that within the current system you can safely discard old gear every 6 months, but with horizontal progression you'd need to horde multiple sets. We have enough inventory problems as it is.

[Andrea]

I wouldn't expect things to change. They have shown that they are fine playing it safe rather than try to make new and interesting concepts.

The game is the same as it is now as it will be come 4.0. A tomestone to grind under a new name, 2 dungeons, a trial and something else that most likely will be abandoned come the next patch (e.g LoV, Chocobo racing ect Hell even diadem is almost a ghost town on most servers).

I'll be honest, I enjoy playing the game but I've come to terms with the fact things most likely will sadly never change.

[Sylkis]

It's not that I disagree with the premise entirely... but rather I can't help but ask the obvious question that comes out of it.
"If not this, then what?"
What else is there? I'm no game designer, I dunno how this stuff works. What would be a better system, and can you point to some examples where it worked?

An example of horizontal progression currently used is the different jobs within the same role and the ability to switch between them. Each job requires time to be leveled up to max level before they can be used. For example: PLD, WAR and DRK can all be used to tank. Each job requires time to level up, and is stronger in different fights. WAR excels in dps, PLD in physical mitigation, DRK in magical mitigation. All can be viable tanks, but some are better in certain situations.


Similarly, you can have different items that have vastly different stats but ultimately serve the same role. There will be ones that are optimal for certain situations - this is the most common argument against it. For example, you could have 3 different shields with say 30VIT and 30STR and one additional stat. On top of those stats, one of the shields increases your damage, another has increased block and the last one reduces magic damage taken. People would work out that it is best to use shield A in fight X, shield B in fight Y and shield C in fight Z. But, all would suffice as a shield.

However, if one does not have the ability or time to obtain all the different items, the system would work out. The illusion of choice argument is only if you have access to all the different options so you can simply choose the best one.
What if you only had shield A and B but you were going to fight Z? Is shield A or B the 2nd best? There is probably an answer to that. But if there was no ilvl so you had 20 shields to choose from (only these exist in the game minus leveling phase), or you have a mixed system where there are say 3 shields to choose from per ilvl tier, the answer won't be clear. Perhaps a shield from the previous ilvl tier is better when you don't have shield C for fight Z (This actually happened to the bard body from WoD, an ilvl120 piece which was considered better than other ilvl130 pieces)

Perhaps the shields could suit different playstyles (I'm getting a bit too hopeful here) - you might gear yourself to deal a lot more damage and have 4.5 dps members in your 8 man party, but your mitigation will be low. Or you might go full mitigation and make it possible to solo tank in 8 man fights (or at least semi solo tank - skipping some tank swaps or tanking some of the adds meant for the 2nd tank).


Another example of horizontal progression, which is actually in the game is the current tier of crafting gear (ignoring specialisation...that is NOT horizontal progression but a restriction). Each class has a class specific set of gear that is the best you can get, but you cannot use it on another class. Additionally, there is a set of crafted + melded gear which can be used by any class, but is inferior in stats. You cannot obtain all the class specific gear within a reasonable amount of time (1 year), so you must choose. However, the crafted + melded gear is sufficient (this is key - otherwise it becomes a restriction like specialisation) for any craft (to my current knowledge it is), but it is difficult - you might need FC buffs, food, luck etc.

[Gunspec]

But if there was no ilvl so you had 20 shields to choose from

"I felt a great disturbance in the Echo, as if millions of retainers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

[Sylkis]

"I felt a great disturbance in the Echo, as if millions of retainers suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced."

There would be only 20 shields (minus the ones used in leveling up) in the whole game up until now, as an example. So 20 (endgame) shields since 2013. And most importantly, you can't have them all but you have some to choose from (unless you are someone who actually farms relics for all jobs)

[xJimmehx]

I like pure vertical progression sometimes. I prefer horizontal though. I dont expect or want the entire game to be rebuilt. I just wish there was a reason not to destroy old gear so often. I dont even do dungeons and raids much anymore. Instead i play mini games at the Gold Saucer and fate/leve grind my classes and jobs to 60. It is not worth it to do any dungeon more than once in my opinion. Unless your desperate to get gear so you arent locked out of content, But whats the gear for? To make the dungeons easier? :|

[Zumi]

I just wish there was a reason not to destroy old gear so often.|

It is like 8 months from when gear is the best to when something better comes out. To me that is a long time. I wish the progression happened faster then that but what we been using the same gear since 3.0 came out. People complaining their gear gets outdated fast as it is now it takes 2 patches which takes about 4 months + 4 months so 8 months total.

[Critical-Limit]

I have seen enough gears set swapping to know it is a bane of this galaxy. Do you remember the time where no one will invite you to exp pt unless you have so and so gear? I do.

I don't.

Why do people assume horizontal progression MUST be exactly like XI.

They could do horizontal progression PURELY through materia. Want to beat the new earth based boss guy? If you saved stackable materia you're already ready. If you need to farm maybe RNG from spirit bond, maybe super rare stats or high grade comes from hard fights.

Go fight titan EX, to get grade VI materia earth resistance. Make the new boss winnable without but make earth resistance materia make the fight eaiser in that you can make a few more mistakes.

No longer need that weapon cuz it's still vertical progression? Have the goblin rip it out for some kind of currency, or w/e.

[Alahra]

They could do horizontal progression PURELY through materia. Want to beat the new earth based boss guy? If you saved stackable materia you're already ready. If you need to farm maybe RNG from spirit bond, maybe super rare stats or high grade comes from hard fights.

There is no way FFXIV's general playerbase would be happy with that, given how people already dislike needing to grind various things to progress. People want to be able to quickly get into endgame content (to the point where even needing to gear up via Law tomes/Alexander NM already bothers some players), and adding materia-gates to end-game content would defeat the purpose of catch-up content like Hunts and 24-man Raids, which are meant to help people get into or progress through more difficult content.

WoW already did this and they ultimately abandoned it because it made the barriers for newer players too high.