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  1. #1
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    Anonymoose's Avatar
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    Ohoho, Bayohne and Yoshi-P are playing hardball now, eh?

    Here's hoping that means they also know whether Thordan was granted the Echo (a la the Sahagin Elder) to do become a primal and whether or not it was Elidibus' doing (as his side of this "project primal" thing he and Lahabrea were up to for 5 patches). <Teleports off to Twitter to try his luck>

    Not surprised about Enkidu, though. Just because it's a comedic representation of a primal doesn't technically mean that it's not a primal at all.
    It's like saying Hildibrand's dapper zombies, because they don't behave like zombies, aren't really zombies.
    (9)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 01-13-2016 at 09:31 PM.
    "I shall refrain from making any further wild claims until such time as I have evidence."
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  2. #2
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    LineageRazor's Avatar
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    Lineage Razor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Here's hoping that means they also know whether Thordan was granted the Echo (a la the Sahagin Elder) to do become a primal and whether or not it was Elidibus' doing (as his side of this "project primal" thing he and Lahabrea were up to for 5 patches). <Teleports off to Twitter to try his luck>
    Ysayle's Echo is implied to be the reason why she was able to become Shiva and yet stay in control of herself and maintain her identity. Thordan, on the other hand, seemed to undergo a pretty radical change in goals and personality after his transformation (unless those goals and personality were always there, and he simply stopped hiding them). That implies to me that Primal Thordan is an example of what happens to someone who becomes a Primal WITHOUT the Echo to protect them. They essentially Temper themselves and become lost in the identity of the Primal they summoned.
    (5)

  3. #3
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    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    Ohoho, Bayohne and Yoshi-P are playing hardball now, eh?

    Here's hoping that means they also know whether Thordan was granted the Echo (a la the Sahagin Elder) to do become a primal and whether or not it was Elidibus' doing (as his side of this "project primal" thing he and Lahabrea were up to for 5 patches). <Teleports off to Twitter to try his luck>
    If so, I'd imagine Lahabrea was pretty pissed about Elidibus not telling him about that particular extension of said project. Right up until it disintegrated him...
    (0)

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    I'd imagine Lahabrea was pretty pissed about Elidibus not telling him about that particular extension of said project.
    The way I've been interpreting things thus far, if Thordan was granted the Echo, it'd have been impossible for Lahabrea not to have known. Both the Sahagin Elder and Minfilia conclude that the former awakening to the Echo was somehow via Elidibus' intervention (2.2). When the Ascians meet to discuss Ramuh's demise and his troubling consent to the Warrior of Light's path, Lahabrea is the one to draw up the next plan: nurture the gifted, give rise to a new god (2.3). Suddenly, a girl with the Echo becomes the center of a heretic sect that gives rise to a new primal, Shiva, which Nabriales monitors under Lahabrea's orders to ensure that man and god are successfully merged (2.4).

    The next thing you know, Lahabrea and Eldibius are standing together behind Thordan's throne, like every movement they've made since the Warrior of Light defeated Ultima was building up to merging the Archbishop - already desperate to win one war and sure to start others if he won - with such power. Logically, that means Lahabrea had to have known that to merge man with god they'd need the Echo, and that Elidibus was capable of giving it to him. (Unless I've interpreted anything wrong.)

    I think Lahabrea was blinded by arrogance, given that everything had gone well for him since Ultima. I think he expected that Thordan would take out the Warrior of Light, and then keep having him and Elidibus over for tea while they helped him take out the dragons, the primals, the Garleans, and ever onward. And he was right, aside from the part where the next stop after the Warrior of Light was him.
    (1)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 01-14-2016 at 10:36 PM.
    "I shall refrain from making any further wild claims until such time as I have evidence."
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  5. #5
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    CyrilLucifer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    snip
    I still don't think Elidibus had anything to do with Thordan being a primal. Elidibus had everything to do with the war and instability in Ishgard, but to me it was clear Lahabrea acted on his own. Seeing Elidibus and Lahabrea together in 2.X does not imply they were working together on personal goals. In fact, straight out, we know Elidibus doesn't always work with the others always and the others aren't happy about it (Nabriales scene in 2.1) and we know Lahabrea and Elidibus were already having a falling out by 2.55 (which probably stems back further, by Elidibus' admission to you). The absolute clencher for me is Elidibus saying at the end of 3.0 that Lahabrea was acting on his own to start a Rejoining.

    Now, if Elidibus aided with the Primal pet project, what would have been the 3.0 end goal? Probably the same as Lahabrea's: Azys Lla, the Triad; Thordan being a primal is worthless unless there's something to use the primal form on, be it to drain Hydaelyn or whatever else needs draining or something else entirely. Elidibus would have been mostly happy with the way things were going, there's no reason for him not to be, everything was going perfectly. Instead we get the opposite: the epilogue statement clearly shows he was not pleased by Lahabrea's actions and did not want Thordan to awaken the Triad (by the way, I think we can chalk this one up as confirmed by the artbook: the "Triad Core" is the main feature inside the Singularity Reactor, I posted some pictures of it in the artbook thread) - and possibly does not want the Triad awakening at all (sending the WoDs after the Primals and aiding you in your EX primal killing). If he was displeased by Lahabrea bringing Thordan to Azys Lla and the Triad, for what purpose would Elidibus want Thordan to be a primal?

    Hence, he probably had nothing to do with the Thordan project.

    My view of that scene behind Thordan was more keeping tabs on Lahabrea, stopping him from doing something stupid, rather than working directly with him on the side project. Stupid, of course, is exactly what Lahabrea does when Elidibus leaves him be.

    But, eh, we've had this debate already.
    (0)
    Last edited by CyrilLucifer; 01-15-2016 at 06:02 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer View Post
    I still don't think Elidibus had anything to do with Thordan being a primal. Elidibus had everything to do with the war and instability in Ishgard, but to me it was clear Lahabrea acted on his own. Seeing Elidibus and Lahabrea together in 2.X does not imply they were working together on personal goals.
    I think we just have different interpretations of certain scenes that lead to a slightly different view of the whole (kind of ironic considering the scale of the ensuing debate.) I agree that the contents of the plan were pretty much entirely Lahabrea, but I think Elidibus did far more than stand on the sidelines, occasionally saying "Hey. Don't f[KUPO]k up." (Which he also did, don't get me wrong.) I could be over-estimating his involvement, but it hardly seems limited to oversight, imho.

    It looks to me like your soul borders need to be fuzzy in order to summon a primal into yourself. We haven't seen that as something within Lahabrea's power to grant, while the game went out of its way to imply that Elidibus was capable. That, right off the bat, primes me to look for his involvement (and, if false, is the source of my bias). They seemed to be working different angles up until the last scene of 2.3 (more on that in a moment), but from then on, at every turn they're shown meeting privately (and I wouldn't be surprised if they were meeting privately prior, off-screen) until it concludes with the ominous foreshadow of them both behind the throne, so I keep seeing things through that lens.

    Here's how I interpreted the same scenes you mention:

    Nabriales (later shown to be following Lahabrea's lead) questions Elidibus when he meets with Minfilia and the Warrior of Light because "our plans are already in motion; your intentions are unclear" and he assures them that "we labor not at cross purposes".

    When Ramuh not only falls to but accepts the Warrior of Light, Emmeroloth and Altima concede that the "potential of man" is limitless. English is (oddly) the only language where Altima doesn't explicitly say, "It's exactly as Elidibus said." Elidibus, meanwhile, stands center stage and states that while the Warrior of Light is getting too strong, it's at such great cost to Hydaelyn that they only need to "nurture the strength of the gifted to forge the final key." Hydaelyn's children have survived the Rejoining seven times, their souls can't withstand more. Out of left field, Lahabrea makes his return and and backs him up, letting everyone know that it's already being worked on; a new deiform will rise. (Summoned by one of Hydaelyn's children to be fought by one of Hydaelyn's children.)

    Lahabrea succeeds with Ysayle (which angers the ambitious Nabriales, causing him to go rogue as soon as he sees a chance to rise above Lahabrea), and as soon as he (who is not of this world and has not partaken of Zodiark's power as Lahabrea has) gets himself killed, the first thing that happens is Lahabrea meets with Elidibus.

    [L] Nevertheless, it concerns me. They have...extinguished that which should rightly be eternal.
    [E] Mayhap he was not wholly mistaken. Greater haste may be warranted.
    [L] We are of one mind.
    [E] The northern lands, then?
    [L] The earth is fertile, and the seeds well sown. By my will, they shall reap salvation unlike any the world has known.
    [E] By His will.
    Not only are they "of one mind" that they should be working faster, Elidibus is confirming with Lahabrea "So, about the next Rejoining. Your plan is for the chaos to start in Dravania and Abalathia?" (Hell, in French he even says, "Your plan is perfect.") The sole point of contention, that I can see, is when Lahabrea follows it up with "Yeah, baby! Primals! This is gonna be great!" and Elidibus reminds him "The means are not the end. Zodiark is the end." Lahabrea no longer treats his plans as "only what is necessary for my god to be reborn", but seems more interested in the plan (giving rise to primals, manipulating how and where they form, toying with the Warrior of Light) than its purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer View Post
    Now, if Elidibus aided with the Primal pet project, what would have been the 3.0 end goal?
    The Eighth Rejoining - hard stop. How it happens doesn't seem to matter to him as much as that it happens. When they meet about Nabriales' death, I see him as telling Lahabrea, "Your plan has my support, but don't forget its purpose."

    Quote Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer View Post
    The absolute clencher for me is Elidibus saying at the end of 3.0 that Lahabrea was acting on his own to start a Rejoining. <...> the epilogue statement clearly shows he was not pleased by Lahabrea's actions and did not want Thordan to awaken the Triad
    Why would Thordan awakening the triad be part of this plan in the first place? Thordan was going to destroy every dragon, every primal, every threat to the peace. Consuming the Triad into the boundless wellspring of the Eye to sustain his coming wars isn't so much "awakening" them as taking them off the board entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Thordan
    O Ascalon! Drink deep of the power of slumbering gods!
    I don't think he's displeased that Lahabrea acted, just that he failed. No dead Warrior of Light, no all-powerful Thordan, no confluence of chaos in the war-torn north, no Eighth Rejoining, and now the Triad are unconsumed, unguarded, and waking up just as everyone and their mother (including Bismarck and Ravana, apparently) are making a play for their power. "And now it falls to me to deal with the consequences."

    Granted, none of this proves Elidibus had anything to do with God-king Thordan, it just imho defends it as an interpretation.
    (3)
    Last edited by Anonymoose; 01-15-2016 at 11:57 AM.
    "I shall refrain from making any further wild claims until such time as I have evidence."
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  7. #7
    Player
    Nalien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymoose View Post
    I don't think he's displeased that Lahabrea acted, just that he failed. No dead Warrior of Light, no all-powerful Thordan, no confluence of chaos in the war-torn north, no Eighth Rejoining, and now the Triad are unconsumed, unguarded, and waking up just as everyone and their mother (including Bismarck and Ravana, apparently) are making a play for their power. "And now it falls to me to deal with the consequences."
    He definitely is. I mean, imagine you were an Ascian at this point; Three high ranking members of your immortal cult have just been swiftly executed. Would you want anything to do with this current set of mortals? I'd imagine the Ascians are looking at what has happened, and are opting to stay out of it for a generation or two. Can't imagine they'd willing line up for our chopping block at this point. Elidibus is likely in this on his own now, I doubt we'll see any other Ascians for a while, that's likely why he sent in the Warriors of Darkness. We'd just kill any Ascians he sends in, but a fellow adventurer? Well, we're not above it, but we at least ask questions first... Usually...

    I'm incline to think the Gerum Oracles suggest something happening with the Garleans and Warring Triad, given his dialog with Urianger. Urianger doesn't want that happening. Elidibus doesn't want that happening. The whole plan to have Thordan VII, a man they could hopefully control, become a Primal equal to Bahamut, by absorbing the Triad, was certainly an appealing prospect, I imagine. I'd speculate that, given the Vanu Vanu had the Key to Azys Lla (hope we get a reason for that one day...), the Ascians likely suggested setting up an outpost in the Sea of Clouds. I imagine that, when Garlemald was on the move again, the Ascians had Bismarck summoned specifically to keep the Key out of their reach, for fear of whatever they're destined to do there. That put a small wrench in their Thordan plans, which we happily solved for them. Then we went to Azys Lla anyway, and we let the Garleans in with us... Plans not looking so great now, but no problem, Thordan will become powerful enough to deal with any problems. Oh dammit, the Warrior of Light regained their blessing and is heading here... Dammit, they defeated us... Dammit, they killed Igeyorhm... Oh Thordan, just in time! GODS DAMMIT!

    Then Nidhogg revives, ensuring that the Warrior of Light promptly forgets about Azys Lla and instead tends to the plight of Ishgard... Yeah, Elidibus is in a sh*tty place right now... He is alone, he knows whatever the Oracles foretold is happening, he knows Primals are seeking out the power of the Triad. He knows the Garleans are sniffing around there. He knows absolutely nobody is keeping tabs on Azys Lla save perhaps a drunkard. I'd imagine he is cursing the Illuminati right now, "How did they figure out summoning? Why did they summon that? Why is Cid there and not focusing on Azys Lla?!". The dhalmel dung has hit the port ventilator, as they say...

    Now to secretly get back to hoping Nero reenters the plot as the Warriors of Darkness' version of Cid... Someone needs to be taking advantage of Azys Lla existing... Someone we know, at least...

    I'm still sure we haven't seen the last of Lahabrea, though. He seemed to have his own ambitions which have subtly been hinted at ("My will", instead of His (Zodiark), for example). Perhaps he just plum forgot he was sowing Chaos for a reason, but given he was very interested in giving mortals the means to become their "God"... Yeah, he didn't want to revive Zodiark, he wanted to be Zodiark... With Nidhogg now going off for "skies unknown", I very much suspect angry eye floater Lahabrea to be a thing... I suspect they both want to be free of each other, and I suspect Lahabrea might "reward" Nidhogg when he is freed... What is Lahabrea good at? Letting people become Primals! Go ahead and Summon Bahamut, Nidhogg, what's the worst that can happen? Oh right, Omega is a thing that is meant to do a thing eventually... Nice to know whatever finale they have planned now pales in comparison to the cutscene now playing in my head...
    (6)
    Last edited by Nalien; 01-16-2016 at 01:49 AM.

  8. #8
    Player
    CyrilLucifer's Avatar
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    I'm glad you mentioned that Lahabrea maybe wanting to become Zodiark bit, because that's one of my (many, many) crackpots. I interpreted the Lahabrea scene with Elidibus similarly. He has shown that he can turn humans into Gods, both via primals and, as we learned more definitely later, possible via mortal to an Ascian transition, who is to say that he can't turn an Ascian into something greater? Where do his tests end?

    Which also has very interesting implications about the Rejoining he was attempting to force, if his goal was to become the "replacement" Zodiark, so to speak.
    (1)