Thordan's 12 Knights are not Primals

[Nalien]

That was actually Ysayle's personal delusion after having an echo vision of Hrasvelgr from Saint Shiva's point of view. Hraesvelgr himself calls her out on that.

I know, that's why I said effectively Tempered, because of that Ysayle came across far more like someone who'd be Tempered, than Thordan VII. In reality neither were Tempered, I don't think at least, but if I was going to think one of them was, it would be Ysayle, because she literally thought she was Shiva. Meanwhile Thordan VII just seemed to have a plan to become God-King, he didn't seem to think he actually was Thordan, or in any way serving Thordan. Granted, we know nothing about Thordans personality, but given Thordan VIIs seeming disdain for Haldrath, I can't imagine he was under any kind of influence... That is either your God-Kings son, or your son, depending on how you take up the mantel of Thordan... Again, we don't actually know the kind of relationship Thordan and Haldrath had, but I imagine it was a damn sight better than Thordan VII and Aymerics.

[Fenral]

I think my favorite part of that list was discovering that Enkidu's official title as a primal is 'ｙuujin' 友神 ("friend" 友人, but with the kanji for person '人' swapped for god '神').

[myahele]

I wonder if the 12 Knights is the answer to what Odin is? We know Zantetsuken is source behind making 'Odin' so could Zantetsuken be "blessing" and transforming the person who wields him the same way Thordan "blesses" the 12 with his power?

[Anonymoose]

Kind of a moot semantic, but I feel compelled to elaborate on Iceheart's fame of mind:

Ysayle, a lonely child in search of purpose and a place in the world, didn't believe that she was a reborn Shiva, but became so in a specific sense. She believed that she was born as one soul within one vessel, but united with Shiva upon offering to share that vessel to let her live again - to fulfill her dream of uniting man and dragon through her. She believed that Shiva, believing her cause was righteous, consented to their union and in doing they became one.

Hrasevelgr is so easily able to dismiss this because Shiva's soul has been with him the entire time. He (whose very name means corpse-swallower) consented to Shiva's desire to consume her so that they would be together forever. He claims that her sentiments stir within him and that he recognizes them as not his own, and that these sentiments alone stay his rage and lead him to wallow in solitude.

I don't see anything comparable to tempering in either her or Thordan, personally. Ysayle didn't even think there was anything divine going on. She thought the gods had left her and Shiva to fend for themselves ("We whom gods and men have forsaken shall be the instruments of our own deliverance!"). At best, she saw Shiva assomeone who should have been a saint and was cast aside. She even bestowed upon her the traits of a truer, more just Halone.

Meanwhile, Thordan's words seem to belie his delusion. He has all of the information: that Thordan I and his knights derived their power from consuming Ratatoskr, what summoning is (down to how aether sustains these entities), that a millennium of prayer and worship has distorted the truth and that he's harnessing that warped version of historical figures. And yet he stands there and claims that he's summoning a "soul" and becoming a "god". Imho, he knows damn well that what he's doing and that, as he's always done, he's revising history to be more consistent with his worldview.

[Frederick22]

Can we say that the Opressors, Living Liquid and the Manipulator were not part of Alexander?
I can hardly imahine that the gobligs were able to creat such beings, infact is evident it wasnt made by goblinds.
All was part of alexander's defense sistem, so in some way it was alexander. I think.

[Cilia]

I figured it was something like that. I always considered the Heavens' Ward "Primal modes" something more akin to a demi-Primal than a proper one, though that does make a bit of a plot hole unless Thordan was able to use his own "full" Primal mode before the Singularity Reactor.

[myahele]

I suppose it shows us what kind of Primal Alexander is if we somehow "fought" him despite us never truly fighting *the*Alexander in the traditional sense. I guess we did fight parts of Alexander.

We're essentially dismantling Alexander's parts while not powered up yet since we're actually in Alexander.

[Alisa180]

Well, that's...interesting.

For one, we know that Thordan proper didn't become a thing until the Singularity Reactor. So, what was the deal with the Heavens' Ward when they changed in the Vault? Are other primals capable of such 'blessing'? Or is it unique to Thordan because he's overpowered by primal standards (sustained by the belief of pretty much the entire city state of Ishgard, and powered by the nigh-infinite aether from Nidhogg's eye)?

Now that I think about it, is it similar to what happened to Nael Val Darnus at the end of the Second Coil? Was he 'blessed' by Bahamut, allowed him to take on a primal-like form?

[Haprimac]

I find it interesting that the knights were 'blessed' instead of tempered. Kinda like Hydaeylyn blessed the WoL - yet some could argue that we're tempered by her.

[CyrilLucifer]

I find it interesting that the knights were 'blessed' instead of tempered. Kinda like Hydaeylyn blessed the WoL - yet some could argue that we're tempered by her.

So, when do I get my super-Warrior of Light Primal transformation?