Thordan's 12 Knights are not Primals

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

I still don't think Elidibus had anything to do with Thordan being a primal. Elidibus had everything to do with the war and instability in Ishgard, but to me it was clear Lahabrea acted on his own. Seeing Elidibus and Lahabrea together in 2.X does not imply they were working together on personal goals. In fact, straight out, we know Elidibus doesn't always work with the others always and the others aren't happy about it (Nabriales scene in 2.1) and we know Lahabrea and Elidibus were already having a falling out by 2.55 (which probably stems back further, by Elidibus' admission to you). The absolute clencher for me is Elidibus saying at the end of 3.0 that Lahabrea was acting on his own to start a Rejoining.

Now, if Elidibus aided with the Primal pet project, what would have been the 3.0 end goal? Probably the same as Lahabrea's: Azys Lla, the Triad; Thordan being a primal is worthless unless there's something to use the primal form on, be it to drain Hydaelyn or whatever else needs draining or something else entirely. Elidibus would have been mostly happy with the way things were going, there's no reason for him not to be, everything was going perfectly. Instead we get the opposite: the epilogue statement clearly shows he was not pleased by Lahabrea's actions and did not want Thordan to awaken the Triad (by the way, I think we can chalk this one up as confirmed by the artbook: the "Triad Core" is the main feature inside the Singularity Reactor, I posted some pictures of it in the artbook thread) - and possibly does not want the Triad awakening at all (sending the WoDs after the Primals and aiding you in your EX primal killing). If he was displeased by Lahabrea bringing Thordan to Azys Lla and the Triad, for what purpose would Elidibus want Thordan to be a primal?

Hence, he probably had nothing to do with the Thordan project.

My view of that scene behind Thordan was more keeping tabs on Lahabrea, stopping him from doing something stupid, rather than working directly with him on the side project. Stupid, of course, is exactly what Lahabrea does when Elidibus leaves him be.

But, eh, we've had this debate already.

[Anonymoose]

I still don't think Elidibus had anything to do with Thordan being a primal. Elidibus had everything to do with the war and instability in Ishgard, but to me it was clear Lahabrea acted on his own. Seeing Elidibus and Lahabrea together in 2.X does not imply they were working together on personal goals.

I think we just have different interpretations of certain scenes that lead to a slightly different view of the whole (kind of ironic considering the scale of the ensuing debate.) I agree that the contents of the plan were pretty much entirely Lahabrea, but I think Elidibus did far more than stand on the sidelines, occasionally saying "Hey. Don't f[KUPO]k up." (Which he also did, don't get me wrong.) I could be over-estimating his involvement, but it hardly seems limited to oversight, imho.

It looks to me like your soul borders need to be fuzzy in order to summon a primal into yourself. We haven't seen that as something within Lahabrea's power to grant, while the game went out of its way to imply that Elidibus was capable. That, right off the bat, primes me to look for his involvement (and, if false, is the source of my bias). They seemed to be working different angles up until the last scene of 2.3 (more on that in a moment), but from then on, at every turn they're shown meeting privately (and I wouldn't be surprised if they were meeting privately prior, off-screen) until it concludes with the ominous foreshadow of them both behind the throne, so I keep seeing things through that lens.

Here's how I interpreted the same scenes you mention:

Nabriales (later shown to be following Lahabrea's lead) questions Elidibus when he meets with Minfilia and the Warrior of Light because "our plans are already in motion; your intentions are unclear" and he assures them that "we labor not at cross purposes".

When Ramuh not only falls to but accepts the Warrior of Light, Emmeroloth and Altima concede that the "potential of man" is limitless. English is (oddly) the only language where Altima doesn't explicitly say, "It's exactly as Elidibus said." Elidibus, meanwhile, stands center stage and states that while the Warrior of Light is getting too strong, it's at such great cost to Hydaelyn that they only need to "nurture the strength of the gifted to forge the final key." Hydaelyn's children have survived the Rejoining seven times, their souls can't withstand more. Out of left field, Lahabrea makes his return and and backs him up, letting everyone know that it's already being worked on; a new deiform will rise. (Summoned by one of Hydaelyn's children to be fought by one of Hydaelyn's children.)

Lahabrea succeeds with Ysayle (which angers the ambitious Nabriales, causing him to go rogue as soon as he sees a chance to rise above Lahabrea), and as soon as he (who is not of this world and has not partaken of Zodiark's power as Lahabrea has) gets himself killed, the first thing that happens is Lahabrea meets with Elidibus.

[L] Nevertheless, it concerns me. They have...extinguished that which should rightly be eternal.
[E] Mayhap he was not wholly mistaken. Greater haste may be warranted.
[L] We are of one mind.
[E] The northern lands, then?
[L] The earth is fertile, and the seeds well sown. By my will, they shall reap salvation unlike any the world has known.
[E] By His will.

Not only are they "of one mind" that they should be working faster, Elidibus is confirming with Lahabrea "So, about the next Rejoining. Your plan is for the chaos to start in Dravania and Abalathia?" (Hell, in French he even says, "Your plan is perfect.") The sole point of contention, that I can see, is when Lahabrea follows it up with "Yeah, baby! Primals! This is gonna be great!" and Elidibus reminds him "The means are not the end. Zodiark is the end." Lahabrea no longer treats his plans as "only what is necessary for my god to be reborn", but seems more interested in the plan (giving rise to primals, manipulating how and where they form, toying with the Warrior of Light) than its purpose.

Now, if Elidibus aided with the Primal pet project, what would have been the 3.0 end goal?

The Eighth Rejoining - hard stop. How it happens doesn't seem to matter to him as much as that it happens. When they meet about Nabriales' death, I see him as telling Lahabrea, "Your plan has my support, but don't forget its purpose."

The absolute clencher for me is Elidibus saying at the end of 3.0 that Lahabrea was acting on his own to start a Rejoining. <...> the epilogue statement clearly shows he was not pleased by Lahabrea's actions and did not want Thordan to awaken the Triad

Why would Thordan awakening the triad be part of this plan in the first place? Thordan was going to destroy every dragon, every primal, every threat to the peace. Consuming the Triad into the boundless wellspring of the Eye to sustain his coming wars isn't so much "awakening" them as taking them off the board entirely.

O Ascalon! Drink deep of the power of slumbering gods!

I don't think he's displeased that Lahabrea acted, just that he failed. No dead Warrior of Light, no all-powerful Thordan, no confluence of chaos in the war-torn north, no Eighth Rejoining, and now the Triad are unconsumed, unguarded, and waking up just as everyone and their mother (including Bismarck and Ravana, apparently) are making a play for their power. "And now it falls to me to deal with the consequences."

Granted, none of this proves Elidibus had anything to do with God-king Thordan, it just imho defends it as an interpretation.

[Belhi]

Im just throwing this in there but the lesser Ascians from the Summoner Job quests imply it was Lahabrea that made them Ascian. Now perhaps they were just folks already with the echo but its not impossible that Lahabrea actually can give people at least a pseudo echo. I mean you wouldn't think the echo is such a large pool of people to recruit from.

[CyrilLucifer]

I think we'll have to just agree to disagree, Moose. Again. Ha.

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That line is my favorite from Heavensward, because it's such a fun line, implications wise. It's just enough of a tease to tell us that Lahabrea is almost positively using mortal-turned Ascians as his servants, but what else that implies and the methods he is using are totally up in the air.

For example, they are completely devoted to Lahabrea, calling Lahabrea master and such, but not seemingly Zodiark as much - does this transformation bind them to Lahabrea, or could, say, Igeyorhm have been able to give them orders? Alternatively, were they even originally willing to become Ascians at all while still mortal? And was the willingness to serve Lahabrea something that came after due to, say, the binding, and they had no choice in the matter? eg, they could have been normal Echo users who heard Hydaelyn, but boom! Lahabrea kills them, because Lahabrea is Lahabrea, then Laha does something to them that turns them into Lesser Ascians.

It's such a wonderful tidbit that it's a shame they relegated it to a side story.

[Nalien]

I don't think he's displeased that Lahabrea acted, just that he failed. No dead Warrior of Light, no all-powerful Thordan, no confluence of chaos in the war-torn north, no Eighth Rejoining, and now the Triad are unconsumed, unguarded, and waking up just as everyone and their mother (including Bismarck and Ravana, apparently) are making a play for their power. "And now it falls to me to deal with the consequences."

He definitely is. I mean, imagine you were an Ascian at this point; Three high ranking members of your immortal cult have just been swiftly executed. Would you want anything to do with this current set of mortals? I'd imagine the Ascians are looking at what has happened, and are opting to stay out of it for a generation or two. Can't imagine they'd willing line up for our chopping block at this point. Elidibus is likely in this on his own now, I doubt we'll see any other Ascians for a while, that's likely why he sent in the Warriors of Darkness. We'd just kill any Ascians he sends in, but a fellow adventurer? Well, we're not above it, but we at least ask questions first... Usually...

I'm incline to think the Gerum Oracles suggest something happening with the Garleans and Warring Triad, given his dialog with Urianger. Urianger doesn't want that happening. Elidibus doesn't want that happening. The whole plan to have Thordan VII, a man they could hopefully control, become a Primal equal to Bahamut, by absorbing the Triad, was certainly an appealing prospect, I imagine. I'd speculate that, given the Vanu Vanu had the Key to Azys Lla (hope we get a reason for that one day...), the Ascians likely suggested setting up an outpost in the Sea of Clouds. I imagine that, when Garlemald was on the move again, the Ascians had Bismarck summoned specifically to keep the Key out of their reach, for fear of whatever they're destined to do there. That put a small wrench in their Thordan plans, which we happily solved for them. Then we went to Azys Lla anyway, and we let the Garleans in with us... Plans not looking so great now, but no problem, Thordan will become powerful enough to deal with any problems. Oh dammit, the Warrior of Light regained their blessing and is heading here... Dammit, they defeated us... Dammit, they killed Igeyorhm... Oh Thordan, just in time! GODS DAMMIT!

Then Nidhogg revives, ensuring that the Warrior of Light promptly forgets about Azys Lla and instead tends to the plight of Ishgard... Yeah, Elidibus is in a sh*tty place right now... He is alone, he knows whatever the Oracles foretold is happening, he knows Primals are seeking out the power of the Triad. He knows the Garleans are sniffing around there. He knows absolutely nobody is keeping tabs on Azys Lla save perhaps a drunkard. I'd imagine he is cursing the Illuminati right now, "How did they figure out summoning? Why did they summon that? Why is Cid there and not focusing on Azys Lla?!". The dhalmel dung has hit the port ventilator, as they say...

Now to secretly get back to hoping Nero reenters the plot as the Warriors of Darkness' version of Cid... Someone needs to be taking advantage of Azys Lla existing... Someone we know, at least...

I'm still sure we haven't seen the last of Lahabrea, though. He seemed to have his own ambitions which have subtly been hinted at ("My will", instead of His (Zodiark), for example). Perhaps he just plum forgot he was sowing Chaos for a reason, but given he was very interested in giving mortals the means to become their "God"... Yeah, he didn't want to revive Zodiark, he wanted to be Zodiark... With Nidhogg now going off for "skies unknown", I very much suspect angry eye floater Lahabrea to be a thing... I suspect they both want to be free of each other, and I suspect Lahabrea might "reward" Nidhogg when he is freed... What is Lahabrea good at? Letting people become Primals! Go ahead and Summon Bahamut, Nidhogg, what's the worst that can happen? Oh right, Omega is a thing that is meant to do a thing eventually... Nice to know whatever finale they have planned now pales in comparison to the cutscene now playing in my head...

[CyrilLucifer]

I'm glad you mentioned that Lahabrea maybe wanting to become Zodiark bit, because that's one of my (many, many) crackpots. I interpreted the Lahabrea scene with Elidibus similarly. He has shown that he can turn humans into Gods, both via primals and, as we learned more definitely later, possible via mortal to an Ascian transition, who is to say that he can't turn an Ascian into something greater? Where do his tests end?

Which also has very interesting implications about the Rejoining he was attempting to force, if his goal was to become the "replacement" Zodiark, so to speak.

[Belhi]

So the friend of our enemy, who is secretly the enemy of our enemy, is in fact an even greater enemy than our enemy.

Wise sayings are getting complicated.

[CyrilLucifer]

Wise sayings are getting complicated.

Here, I have a summary for you:
Lahabrea is the best.

[kuma_aus]

People keep saying we haven't fought Alexander, but didn't we kill his heart at the end of the first 1/3rd of the story? We all know something is going to happen and Alexander is going to come back and start moving again, but we still destroyed his heart and made him stop moving. I would consider that as having fought Alexander, even though we didn't defeat him and make him disappear into Aether completely.

[Nalien]

People keep saying we haven't fought Alexander, but didn't Mide kill his heart at the end of the first 1/3rd of the story? We all know something is going to happen and Alexander is going to come back and start moving again, but Mide still destroyed his heart and made him stop moving. I would consider that as Mide having fought Alexander, even though Mide didn't defeat him and make him disappear into Aether completely.

Fixed that for you. We really didn't do anything but clear a path... Faust, Oppressor, Living Liquid, and Manipulator (perhaps the giant Spiders in A2 as well) are all perhaps creations of Alexander, or his defense system, or something, but I wouldn't consider that fighting Alexander. They seem no different than the Heavensward to me, Blessing offered by Alexander, not Alexander himself.

Come to think of it... How are characters like Cid and Mide helping out with Alexander? Shouldn't there be a looming fear of being tempered? Alexander is still a Primal...