The arrogance of some people

[Whiteroom]

It's slower. And no one is saying they can't do what they want, they're saying they aren't going to like them for doing so.

I mean, you can enjoy Jersey Shore. But I'm still going to judge you for it.

This, why do people assume that having the ability to make a choice means everyone has to think you are great for making it?

I'm surprised this is 81 pages, why can't it come down to if your healer want to dps do dps if someone doesn't want to do dps let them not do dps its nut hurting the run your still clearing your dungeon/trial lol

But isn't having the goal of just clearing a dungeon such a mediocre and half hearted way of running? These dungeons are all quite simple to clear. To base the only expectation you have of the run as "clearing" is just so meh. Just clearing a run is an acceptable goal for maybe things like first runs, or doing min ilvl syncs in trials/raids you have already completed 100 times.

That a lot of people are well overgeared for the dungeons and have run them dozens of times already, and to have the goal at simply clearing... well that says a lot.

[Lexia]

I spend a lot of time in cleric stance so these runs end up not being too slow (holy spam is very broken),

Holy not broken, broken means SE messed something up and never fixed it. They nerfed Holy on purpose.

[Miste]

Holy not broken, broken means SE messed something up and never fixed it. They nerfed Holy on purpose.

I just meant broken in the sense I pull really high DPS numbers with it (along with Assize, and Aero III), plus it stuns which makes me able to do even more casts. Compared to AST for example their Gravity has no extra benefit on it, you only have one AoE stun (Celestial Opposition) which is a long cool down. It's just my personal opinion that Holy seems pretty broken with how much DPS I can do with it. Maybe I am just not as good with AST but I can't pull as big DPS on it because it doesn't have something equal to Holy.

[Alahra]

But isn't having the goal of just clearing a dungeon such a mediocre and half hearted way of running?

It's important to remember that there are kind of two overarching player mentalities in games like this (and in games in general): there's a "game as sport" (let's say) mentality, that focuses on competition, honing skills, and one's betterment as a player; and then there is a sort of "game as leisure" mentality, which focuses more on a relaxed sort of enjoyment. Some players espouse both mentalities in varying sorts of content or based on varying moods. (I tend more toward sport on my main, NIN, which I use for progression, and leisure on my alt jobs, for instance.)

Neither way is necessarily more valid than the other—but for either side to expect the other to conform to what they enjoy is nearsighted and ultimately displays a lack of empathy and understanding.

[Whiteroom]

It's important to remember that there are kind of two overarching player mentalities in games like this (and in games in general): there's a "game as sport" (let's say) mentality, that focuses on competition, honing skills, and one's betterment as a player; and then there is a sort of "game as leisure" mentality, which focuses more on a relaxed sort of enjoyment. Some players espouse both mentalities in varying sorts of content or based on varying moods. (I tend more toward sport on my main, NIN, which I use for progression, and leisure on my alt jobs, for instance.)

Neither way is necessarily more valid than the other—but for either side to expect the other to conform to what they enjoy is nearsighted and ultimately displays a lack of empathy and understanding.

This is known and understood. And it is usually when you get people at the extreme ends of each spectrum that you see sparks. However setting the bar at the bare minimum and accepting that as fine is an objectively a low standard regardless of viewing it as sport or leisure. There are exceptions of course, like everything. Also, using these outlooks still does not excuse that you are running these instances in a team enviroment and concessions have to be made by those involved for everyone to have the most enjoyable run in the player configuration given.

The overgeared healer that refuses to do more than the absolute minimum in a group where the other three are overgeared and pushing is no better than the overgeared tank that tries the biggest pulls in dps stance while the other three are min ilvl, or the dps that runs and pulls all the extra mobs to a tank that can't handle it.


Just like most parser threads, where when people say the expect a little effort from players, and some go "SORRY I'M NOT LEET WORLD FIRST DPS." Some think dpsing in heal stance mean you have to absolutely optomise every runs as soon as its brought up. All that is really being said is that taking the bare minimum route is lazy, regardless of your views on the game as sport or leisure, and it is.

Also everyone has the odd lazy run. Hell, I do from time to time, that doesn't mean I'm not being lazy when I do it.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, it's understood, but that understanding is not often very well communicated...

But from the vitriol that gets thrown around (again, whether people like it or not, some folks take offense to being called lazy in a game they play for leisure), one could be forgiven for thinking that healer DPS is the only thing that makes a difference between a 15 minute run and a 45 minute one.

Posting here due to stupid forum post limitations...

Well, tbh, a lot of it is the over reaction that a large number people have to any comments on playstyle. In the end, I agree with most of what you have said.

As far as the healer dps being the biggest difference in a run. Idealy it should be, and I believe in a run with decent dps, who push reasonable numbers, it is. Of course we have to get over the state of dps in this game for that to happen, which I don't believe can be done without first introducing some forum of metric or parser (but thats a whole other can of worms and better for a parser thread than here.)


As far as them taking offense to being called lazy, when they are in fact being lazy, thats fine as well. If it offends them so much, my only advice is to stop being lazy or get over it. If you can't accept being viewed in a certian way, then don't be that way alternatively be happy with the method you choose to play.

[Niwashi]

It's rewarding because I don't have to sit in a god awful dungeon that makes me want to tear my own eyes out from sheer boredom, how's that?

And there's the crux of your whole problem. You can't stand having to play this game. But you seem not to have noticed that it's a game. You don't have to play it if you don't want to. If the game is that horribly boring to you, then just turn it off. Find another game to play, read a book, or whatever it is that actually makes you happy. You shouldn't be spending your leisure time on anything that makes you want to tear your own eyes out from sheer boredom. And you certainly shouldn't be using the fact that you don't want to be there in the first place as a reason to ruin it for the people who do want to be there.

Now, there are of course other reasons for liking to go fast that are actually valid. As I pointed out earlier, some players enjoy the extra danger and excitement of a fast run, so playing that way delights them. But it clearly doesn't delight you. If there were anything in this game that delighted you, then that's what you'd be doing instead of that dungeon you can't stand.

NOTHING in the game is mandatory. If you don't like something, then simply don't do it. You're doing both yourself and anyone with the misfortune of being grouped with you a horrible disservice by being where you don't belong. Runs should never be geared towards players who who don't even want to be there in the fist place.

[Alahra]

This is known and understood.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, yes, it's understood, but that understanding is not often very well communicated. It's as though many of the "pro-DPS" players don't seem to realize that most people take offense to being called lazy, and then wonder why their perspectives are met with so much resistance by those players who don't wish to always be pushing themselves to the limit.

This is in fact a team game, yes, and I advocate for any player to play at a level of play that they find comfortable and enjoyable (even when I'm being "lazy" on healer, I still DPS—but my comfort level is such that I can relax and do so). But most especially in Duty Finder content, all players should endeavor to approach being paired with (usually) total strangers with an attitude without high expectation that the entire group will conform to their preferred style of play. Instead, they should be prepared to meet somewhere in the middle where possible, in my opinion. It's a simple matter of courtesy. And given that nothing outside of Savage currently requires healer DPS, I think it shows a rather poor attitude to expect every random healer you run into to play dungeons and push DPS and then come on the forums and, essentially, toss insults at the ones that don't.

Most of the time, heavy healer DPS shaves a matter of minutes off of a typical dungeon run. Assuming the DPS players are competent with their AoE rotations, etc, the run will still proceed pretty quickly even if the healer twiddles their thumbs the whole time. Often, when paired with competent DPS (especially SMNs) I don't even have time to get let full DoTs tick down on SCH. WHM is better equipped for speedrunning because of the burst potential of Holy, but even then, with competent DPS, I often find time for just 2-3 casts of it, which ultimately doesn't greatly impact the run.

But from the vitriol that gets thrown around (again, whether people like it or not, some folks take offense to being called lazy in a game they play for leisure), one could be forgiven for thinking that healer DPS is the only thing that makes a difference between a 15 minute run and a 45 minute one.

[RickXRolled]

Except in RL I get rewarded for giving everything.
What do I get for doing it in this game?

More exp? No
More Gil? No
More tomes? No

As long is this game does not reward you based on performance I won't do more than I need to get things done.

Exactly. That's why we call your kind lazy, but then your kind claims they're not lazy. Either admit you are lazy or start putting in some effort

[Eothas]

Also everyone has the odd lazy run. Hell, I do from time to time, that doesn't mean I'm not being lazy when I do it.

Right? I'll never say anything to a healer that only wants to heal, but BE HONEST, please.

If a healer says to me "Hey, I don't want to DPS, I'm feeling lazy today" or "Hey, I'm drunk" or "I'm not comfortable to DPS and Heal at the same time", I'll be totally cool with it. I'll not appreciate it, but I'll accept it and they may even get a comm from me for being honest.

But when someone tries to JUSTIFY it and worse: spreading misinformation, like saying the best healers are the ones that don't DPS? Excuse me no, just no. To me players that can't accept that they have room for improvement are the worst, they are the real arrogant players and the root of a 'toxic' community.

[RiceisNice]

Exactly. That's why we call your kind lazy, but then your kind claims they're not lazy. Either admit you are lazy or start putting in some effort

The question is

As long is this game does not reward you based on performance I won't do more than I need to get things done.

As far as both sides is concerned, does this mean the bare minimum to get it done? I mean honestly speaking, dps can get through any dungeon by spamming 1 over and over because none of them have dps checks or otherwise a soft enrage that puts pressure on the party to get it done fast. Hell, the bare minimum at this point is auto attacking. Is a SCH that literally afk-follows during a dungeon run doing the bare minimum or enough to get the job done? What about the healer that does nothing but spam cure I and overheals the hell out of you?

In the end, what really bothers me the most is hypocrisy or the double-standard of an expectation. If people expect to be able to get away with doing nothing but the bare minimum out of their role (which could be the healer, or the dps), why can't anyone else? If people don't want to do XYZ to perform their role well or beyond it, at best I'll just silently judge them, at worst call them out on it which at that point, you'd have to be under-performing at your role; a healer that pulls aggro from spamming, failure to keep the tank alive within reason, a dps that well...can't dps, or a tank that can't hold aggro).

And there are grey areas to everything and honestly nothing should be taken for face value without the context behind it.