The arrogance of some people

[Kaurie]

Faster isn't better just because you keep saying so. The capitalist argument would only go as far as indicating that maximizing your rewards is better. But see my first paragraph above. Time does not affect your rewards.

Yes it does.

If you log in for 2 hours, and you complete 5 dungeons - you get 5 dungeons worth of rewards. If you log in for 2 hours and complete 6 dungeons you get 6 dungeons worth of rewards.

Everything in our capitalist economy is based of productivity. That is, the effectiveness of productive effort, especially in industry, as measured in terms of the rate of output per unit of input. In this sense the rate of output is tomes and input is time spent.

There is no scaling whether you succeed it or not, yes/no cannot be scaled.

Faster is better. I've already explained why in many posts, I've also gone as far as saying that I understand some people may consider it not better, but that the majority considers it better is enough for it to be so. I provided you with an example of causing bodily harm to someone, I am not sure if you saw this.

Long story short, most people prefer faster runs, faster runs provide more reward to someone in the same time-frame, and therefore it can be considered better. Whether you consider it better or not doesn't really matter, what matters is that most people you are playing with consider it better.

Out of curiosity, why are you trying to promote/advocate people to play terribly?


I would like to add to this whole thing that I would love FFXIV to see this thread and realize that the DPS meta they have created is really creating a toxic atmosphere.

It has resulted in creating people like:
a) myself who are becoming less and less tolerant of other players by the day
b) players who get resentful of other players and want to play how they want, and then lash out more easily
c) players who want to play to the high standards being set, but are not skilled enough and resulting in wipes by trying to DPS too much

It's great that they are working in skill, but I would be all for them lowering the DPS meta. I'd prefer to have healers actually be focused on healing the party and providing support. I'd like DPS to be using things like CC/Utility more often, and I'd like to see tanks not worrying more about DPS than staying alive and/or holding hate.

I think that's part of the issue with these discussions (similar things happen in discussions regarding tank DPS, too): this is often understood to be the case by those arguing for more DPS, but it's often lost in how heated the discussions become, and it leads to players believing that if they aren't DPSing for some particular period of time that they're bad—or framed differently, it pushes less savvy players to take on too much risk at the expense of proper caution.

The increased emphasis on DPS cultivated by Heavensward has, honestly, made Duty Finder an absolute nightmare at times, as Duty Finder is invariably a place to exercise caution (at least until you're familiar with the capabilities of the unknowns that have been assigned to your group), but the "proper" way to play is to lean toward risk. Granted, I most often see the worst behavior in this regard from tanks (I swear, if I have to heal one more "never-uses-a-cooldown" STR tank...), but healers have a similar trade-off between risk and caution (it's just that theirs is more forgiving since it's based less on gear choice and more on proper ability usage, something that can be adjusted in situ the way it can't be for tank accessories).



A lot of healers (and tanks) honestly don't in my experience. Even when players take care to express the need to become comfortable with content before DPSing on the forums, that message can get lost as it transmits through the various echelons of the playerbase in the game itself, in part because most of the game doesn't really have a tradeoff between risk and caution, so players tend to expect that there is one "right" way to play, when it's not necessarily that simple.

It's easy for it to happen, too. It's easiest to illustrate (again) using tanks as an example: a new tank asks their FC, "Which is better for tanks, VIT or STR?" and they receive a simple, but basically true, answer of "STR is better." But a fresh tank, who isn't familiar with any of the level 60 dungeons, might actually want to use at least some VIT until they're over a certain HP threshold, or while they're learning the content, and so on. HW leveling dungeons are also tuned (it seems, from running them countless times) with higher tank damage, making VIT more useful (especially for newer tanks). But in my experience, the nuance doesn't often get expressed in the game itself (and most people get their information not from the forums but from people they know in the game).

Definitely, I couldn't respond earlier due to the limit, but I agreed with what you said. I gave you a +1

[RickXRolled]

Faster isn't better just because you keep saying so.

Okay buddy. You can take 45 minutes to finish a dungeon to get your tomes, while I run the dungeon twice and get double the tome/time spent ratio.

[Niwashi]

Out of curiousity, if you and I partnered together, and for random reasons I decided not to heal you for the dungeon. Then you died repeatedly and we weren't able to meet any DPS checks. Would the failure of this be in part yours to blame, as the parties success is a team endeavour, or would it be 100% mine because I was stubbornly refusing to heal?

Well, that would depend on why I was dying repeatedly. If I could have prevented those deaths (and their resulting down time and DPS check failures) with more effective dodging, some self-heals, and/or better aggro management, but I didn't, then I'd share responsibility for the failure. If I was dying to unavoidable damage that can only be survived by more healing than my limited self-heal abilities can provide, then the only player capable of changing that result, and therefore the one with the full responsibility for it, would be the healer.

It comes down to how I described it a few posts back: "If you could have prevented a problem and chose not to" or at least could have prevented a problem and didn't.

[RickXRolled]

Out of curiosity, why are you trying to promote/advocate people to play terribly?

Because people don't like having to put in effort or be accountable. Same reason most people do not want public parsers. Most people don't even bother reading their tooltips. Try to reason with these people and they will feel offended. The problem with society in this day and age is that everyone feels offended about everything to the point they want safe spaces. Ridiculous.

[Kaurie]

Well, that would depend on why I was dying repeatedly. If I could have prevented those deaths (and their resulting down time and DPS check failures) with more effective dodging, some self-heals, and/or better aggro management, but I didn't, then I'd share responsibility for the failure. If I was dying to unavoidable damage that can only be survived by more healing than my limited self-heal abilities can provide, then the only player capable of changing that result, and therefore the one with the full responsibility for it, would be the healer.

It comes down to how I described it a few posts back: "If you could have prevented a problem and chose not to" or at least could have prevented a problem and didn't.

Thing is a DRG is required to do that because it's their job, healer DPS is and always will be optional. you just have to live with it.

I see, that is an interesting way of viewing things.

[Seoulstar]

Been doing that since 2.0.

Then stick with it and don't bug healers to death over something so little lol

[Launched]

Then stick with it and don't bug healers to death over something so little lol

Healer DPS isn't "little". It contributes a lot to any fight. A healer not DPSing is like a DRG that only uses its Full Thrust combo or a PLD that only uses Halone.

[Blood-Aki]

Healer DPS isn't "little". It contributes a lot to any fight. A healer not DPSing is like a DRG that only uses its Full Thrust combo or a PLD that only uses Halone.

Thing is a DRG is required to do that because it's their job, healer DPS is and always will be optional. you just have to live with it.

[RickXRolled]

Thing is a DRG is required to do that because it's their job, healer DPS is and always will be optional. you just have to live with it.

That's fine, as long as you can live with the fact you are a 2nd rate healer and people don't like you.

[Raikki]

Thing is a DRG is required to do that because it's their job, healer DPS is and always will be optional. you just have to live with it.

No DPS who plays with you should ever be expected to dodge AOEs then, because reducing the amount of healing you have to do isn't DPSing.