Gerun Oracles

[Anonymoose]

I was thinking more along the lines of Zodiark being an "old" God.

This is one thing I've come back to over and over since the original GC Midlander thread. Before all the Ivalice references were dragged into this, Eorzea was based on Greece. If you consider the Twelve as the Olympians, they sit atop two fallen orders of gods.

First, the Primordials. In Eorzea, these would be represented as the forces from which all things were generated, and originally it seems that these are the beings that the Beastmen are calling from the aether; it's what they truly believe the primals to be. This is later proven to be wrong, but you have a manifestation of the idea nonetheless.

But what about the Titans? Beings cast down by the gods who came after - the new order. It works on a lot of levels (primarily because what we have to go on is so vague, of course), but even comparing the leader of the Titans to Zodiark seems like a slam dunk at a superficial glance. Cronus was the youngest of the first generation of Titans, Zodiark was the youngest of Ivalice's gods. Cronus led a Golden Age with no law, Zodiark was so strong that all things before him were undone, leaving him the King of Precepts. Cronus and his followers were cast into an abyss for their transgressions, Zodiark and the Ascians seem to be waging their war utilizing the void. Cronus is often equated or confused with Chronus, the god of time, Zodiark has power over time.

Rather than being the Twelve, the Ascians would be the gods they overthrew (whose first generation was also twelve). All of those similarities could be what led SE to invoke Zodiark from Ivalice for the Ascian god's name in ARR to begin with, considering he could then be connected to Ophiuchus, the thirteenth zodiac (Alpha Star: Sabik). And before Zodiark (XII), the constellation was was represented Elidibus (Tactics), whose form was a serpent. Ophiuchus bears the serpent constellation Serpens (Alpha Star: Unukalhai). Lots of connections. (Lots of coincidences...?)

I'm just stirring the pot, though. When things are so open-ended that you can barely take any basics for a granted, I hesitate to struggle with the specifics. It's a time vampire. (Damn you, Zodiark.)

[Cilia]

This is one thing I've come back to over and over since the original GC Midlander thread. Before all the Ivalice references were dragged into this, Eorzea was based on Greece. If you consider the Twelve as the Olympians, they sit atop two fallen orders of gods.

First, the Primordials. In Eorzea, these would be represented as the forces from which all things were generated, and originally it seems that these are the beings that the Beastmen are calling from the aether; it's what they truly believe the primals to be. This is later proven to be wrong, but you have a manifestation of the idea nonetheless.

It's funny you should bring that up, because in Greek myth while there may be primordials that existed before even the Titans, before even them there existed Chaos.

What is the Ascians' goal? To resurrect Zodiark, god of chaos, using a "chaotic confluence of aether." To return everything to its true shape as it ever should have remained. At the very least, this would imply that Zodiark is the root of all creation and Hydaelyn is violating causality by allowing our existence... but then, from where did Hydaelyn come if she is at such odds with him? This is the big question that needs answering, I think...

[Anonymoose]

<...>before even them there existed Chaos.

That's a major place "so vague a lot of things work" kicks in. The Ascians are called the Bringers of Chaos. And Chaos is required to bring Zodiark.

Chaos was personified in what? I, VII, and ish in XII? So there's clearly a precedence for it. And yet in something Greek-inspired it's a bit of a paradox, simultaneously fitting very well and not at all. Taken as a God, all of the sentiments paint him as the God of the very thing he should rightfully have risen from. (Then again, that's not even so much of a paradox as the point depending on which Greek you're reading.) He also works as an Erebus-like figure.

To keep stirring the pot (and nudge the boundaries of contemplation wide enough to include my train of thought's current station), for the Greeks Chaos is the yawning abyssal void from which Darkness and (eventually) Aether rose; where all of the elements were a formless hodgepodge at the time of Creation when Heaven (The Age of the Gods?) and Earth (The Corporeal?) were separated. Most interestingly, the "moving shapeless" Chaos is often understood by comparing it to water (which is both defies shape yet readily accepts any form), and is seen in many religions as a unity undone and sorted out by a cosmological Creator.

In the beginning, before myth and legend, before Light and Dark, there was but the sea.

[Cilia]

That's a major place "so vague a lot of things work" kicks in. The Ascians are called the Bringers of Chaos. And Chaos is required to bring Zodiark.

...

In the beginning, before myth and legend, before Light and Dark, there was but the sea.

It does get difficult when you try and go back to the root of creation, even with science. While the Big Bang is a widely-accepted phenomenon, what the universe was like before then is still a giant question mark there is seemingly no way to answer. But I digress.

Chaos is a major figure in I as the first and last major opponent you fight in a certain sense of the word, and is the origin of the time loop the world is stuck in. His Ivalice incarnation is a shout-out to this version, called "Walker of the Wheel" because he's been killed and resurrected countless times by the gods (Occuria).

In VII, Chaos is originally just Vincent's ultimate Limit Break, but his existence is expanded upon in Dirge of Cerberus: he's essentially a grim reaper whose purposes is to kill everything in the event of a catastrophe, so as to send their spirit energy to Omega Weapon (in that 'verse, a sort of interplanetary ark for the Planet's Lifestream).

However, Chaos also exists in the Fabula Nova Crystallis sub-series, albeit as a primordial force more akin to how it's portrayed in Greek myth than as an independent character. There it just is, and is used by Etro to give humans hearts, but becomes problematic when unleashed on the mortal plane because it breaks down the laws of reality. It's Caius' intentional doing so that leads to the apocalypse, more or less, as witnessed in Lightning Returns. Or so I heard. I only played 1/2 of the original XIII before I got bored.

Back to the point - in Greek myth, Chaos is the primordial force that has always existed, but it was only when other things came out of it that existence properly began. Things are only defined by their opposite, or "And God said: let there be light." Before then there was no such thing as darkness, that's just what there was. There was no disparity. The introduction of the light defines darkness - "shadow is not cast, but born of [light]." Then, if Hydaelyn is the goddess of light and order to Zodiark's darkness and chaos, my current best guess is that she took Zodiark's power, formless aether, and sorted it out to shape the world we know today, and Zodiark created the Ascians as a sort of dying curse to kill Hydaelyn and return his power to him. Zodiark is "dead" because Hydaelyn sorts his essence, raw aether, into the elements we know make up everything in the world.

That makes the Ascians' goal of wreaking as much havoc as possible make sense, kind of - by destroying Hydaelyn, the planet, they're weakening the goddess and her ability to filter aether into the elements that make up the world. Then chaos will return and with it, Zodiark... returning everything to a zero world, where there is no life and no crystal to give life, a la IX's Necron.

... I'm tired and frustrated the servers be down. Incoherent rambling, toss off Darksteel Foil hat.

[whiskeybravo]

My current best guess is that she took Zodiark's power, formless aether, and sorted it out to shape the world we know today, and Zodiark created the Ascians as a sort of dying curse to kill Hydaelyn and return his power to him. Zodiark is "dead" because Hydaelyn sorts his essence, raw aether, into the elements we know make up everything in the world.

I really like your post here, this part reminds me of a prism breaking up the spectrum of light, and we see Hydaelyn in a crystal form so breaking up the spectrum of aether is not a far-fetched concept IMO.

Really great thoughts here over all, I always get a kick out of the Lore you guys are able to gather together. Keep up the good work!

[Kaiser-Ace]

As some one who has studied Greek Mythology for nearly 2 decades, I'd like to remind everyone that the Primordial, Chaos, Was actually a formless being that was equal parts deity and force. Chaos, The Deity (Often considered a Goddess Ironically) was the personification of Chaos,The Force.

In the mythological since the "Primeval Chaos" was all of the shapeless energy filling the void before Gaia rose (In an Egg no less) from the sea of Chaos and formed the material world with Uranus. And even after which The Chaos still existed outside of Gaia's physical plain.

The Primeval Chaos was also called "The Void" IRL by the classical scholars interestingly enough.

So Zodiark in this world being Chaos Incarnate could actually have some merit if we start to think of Hydaelyn as Gaia. Though I'd personally equate The Primals/Eikons the being To Titans rather than The Primordials (As That would only contain Gaia Earth Mother, Uranus Skyfather, And Chaos the One that is All)