Gerun Oracles

[Anonymoose]

I almost wonder if the Ascians are essentially Voidsent...

I was under the impression that this was what our first impression was meant to be. Travanchet manifested a voidgate to steal the Key. The colors of their clothes and magicks are related to the void, their associations with darkness are related to the void, they move through voidgates. They possess people, they chant an Ancient language and raise voidsent from the "mournful voice of creation". They even spoke of how the gate is already wide open and that void would "win". It didn't start to seem like they were originally more than lords of the void until Zodiark and the revelation that they were fleeing to a space between the worlds (the interdimensional rift); that perhaps they became associated with void from somethng... "before".

I kind of wonder what would have happened were he allowed to continue his rampage... Just drawing close to the planet was already corrupting aetherytes and unleashing Voidsent, his brief rampage created a lot of corrupt crystals, though I don't recall any Voidsent around them... If correct, would this technically change the Calamity? Bahamut wasn't the Calamity, in the same sense the War of the Magi wasn't the Calamity, it was just the cause. That would, of course, make Louisoix the Calamity...

In out-of-world discussions, Louisoix is referred to as half-preventing the Calamity, so I'd feel kinda weird dropping the blame on him. The finger has generally been pointed at Bahamut's insatiable hunger. He was placed into Dalamud because of the massive amount of energy he could act as a transistor for; what he took from the sun and transferred to the planet was more than even the Crystal Tower could provide.

Hydaelyn was already weakened by the events surrounding the events of 1562 (fall of the keeper, arrival of the primals) and it seemed like the original plan was for all of this to come to a head with the Empire. Instead, Nael van Darnus measured and disrupted the aetheric rivers of Eorzea, channeling the energy to Dalamud. As it drew closer to the planet, the aetheric draw was so much that it drained crystals of their aspect right out of the ground. Even the dissolving mist of defeated primals rose to the sky. The repeated summoning of primals served to take more energy from Hydaelyn and send it to Dalamud. Dalamud then punctured and warped the very rivers themselves, leading to the corrupted crystal protrusions.

Meanwhile, the instability in the "membrane" between the corporeal world and the void caused a "wobbling" of the two. Where they overlapped, Atomos slipped through from the void and began to basically treat the aetheryte camps as big straws, sucking aether out of the networks, overcharging the crystals, and allowing voidsent to flood through. As far as I can tell, the mass-appearance of voidsent was a side-effect, this time.

Personally, I still see this positive feedback loop as the primary cause of the Calamity, with Louisoix's actions being a desperate intervention.

far to much of Final Fantasy as a series has taken pains to insist that there is no great evil that can be defeated to bring about eternal world peace.

Eternal world peace, no. But isn't every Final Fantasy about putting an end to a cycle and/or force that denies mankind control of its own destiny? There are several ways the Ascians could end up being seen as becoming or harnessing antagonistic / evil powers rather than just being cartoon villains. If they truly believe that the original order or Zodiark's control of Creation was how things were better off, they have every reason to treat us like they do without necessarily being seen as evil as much as (gods help us) wrong. And, as an advocate and mediator of Zodiark with our world, Elidubus would be expected take a far less "who cares how much suffering we cause" approach.

I - XIV

FFI: Chaos' time loop
FFII: Emperor's relationship with Hell
FFIII: Xande's mortality and manipulation by the Cloud of Darkness
FFIV: Lunarians' stalled integration/invasion
FFV: Moore Tree's corruption its division of the world
FFVI: Repercussions of the Warring Triad's existence
FFVII: Jenova's conquest / Shinra's exploitation of the planet
FFVIII: Ultimecia's manipulation of time
FFIX: Terra's infection of Gaia
FFX: Sin
FFXI: Lasting effects of the Zilart and Promathia
FFXII: The Occuria
FFXIII: The death of the universe
FFXIV: Cycle of the Eras / Ascians

Note that in all of these, there also was some force that we would perceive as evil, usually associated with void. Whether or not we have to keep wiping Ascians out is up for grabs, but so long as they see us as inevitably marching towards our own extinction, I'm not gonna feel too bad about it.

[Nalien]

It didn't start to seem like they were originally more than lords of the void until Zodiark and the revelation that they were fleeing to a space between the worlds (the interdimensional rift); that perhaps they became associated with void from somethng... "before".

I'm somewhat reluctant to associate The Void with The Interdimensional Rift. Crystal Tower makes it seem more likely that it is The World of Darkness, which if I'm remembering my Dissidea correctly, ExDeath considered separate (and inferior) to The Void... Add to that how prominent The Void has been in this game, granted it isn't Main Scenario material, but it's still very much something that comes up time and time again, while The Interdimensional Rift has always been "endgame" material, if that.

I'll be honest though, the idea mostly came about because my OCD will not allow Belias/Zodiark to be "Primals", while Cuchulainn is a Voidsent... That is not how references work, either they're all Primals or they're all Voidsent dammit! Belias (and Zodiark) being something like a Void Primal seems to work quite nicely as far as that goes, with Tristan "learning" Belias-Egi through the Ascians and effectively giving us a corrupted Ifrit-Egi (purple colour scheme screems Void to me, I'm sure it was just the devs cutting corners and being unable to reskin Ifrit-Egi red though). Ultimately it would make for a nice mirror to Hydaelyn, with the twelve Ivalice Espers potentially being The World of Darkness versions of the Twelve, also building on the Ascians naming/sigils somewhat. I imagine there would be more fanfare over us slaying Cuchulainn were that the case though, granted his Ascian counterpart is already gone...

I do still find it odd though, that from all the Eras we know, we had problems (Civil unrest, War of the Magi, Garleans), followed by a Void problem (Cloud of Darkness, Mhach, Atomos), followed by a Calamity... The Ascians coming through The Void from their world, or their world being consumed by The Void already are certainly other possibilities, with it cropping up around Calamities just being a side effect of whatever "much chaos, such disaster, wow" is meant to achieve, but then Nabriales makes it seem like The Void is very much a part of their plans. He stole Tupsimati and was very keen on starting the next Rejoining, then he goes on about having The Void devour all light... Likely just a good source of chaos, but if their world is/was separate from The Void, wouldn't that make it a common threat? Wouldn't their world be (or have been) equally at risk of Voidsent? If you have two worlds, with The Void in the middle, and you burn out one, wouldn't the other bare the full brunt of the Voidsent from then on? The only sense I can make there is that we have a reverse Final Fantasy V going on; Rather than a planet being split to seal The Void, we have a planet being split allowing The Void through... Though even then, if The Void is meant to be some common enemy, which could put us in agreement with Elidibus... Nope, can't make sense of that... They make far too much use of the Void for it to be a problem for them...

No, I think I'm going to go back to my original hypothesis on "not of this world"; There is no other world, the Ascians are very much of this world. They've got a Planet of the Apes thing going on, and we're the Apes. Would fit nicely with Lahabreas comment that the laws of existence are being warped beyond all recognition. They're not of this world because the laws of existence have been warped such that the world is now alien to them. That warping is what prevents them easy access, Lahabrea and Elidibus are "new" so they're "of this world" in the sense that it is more familiar to them, but if allowed to worsen they'd be in the same boat as Nabriales et al.

Granted, Final Fantasy doesn't shy away from just pulling another world out of no where, I'd rather it didn't though.

Granted, that rogue element could very well be Lahabrea, but so long as seemingly all the major problems in the world end up traced back to Ascian instigation, it kind of sends the message that the evils plaguing humanity are external, even without meaning to.

Well, we have a few evils which (so far) aren't traced back to Ascians... Ilberd seems to have no involvement with them, and it's unknown whether Thordan I did. Heck, something like the civil descent of Allag would almost have to be mans fault, rather than Ascians. Ascians perhaps just pushed them in that direction...

[Anonymoose]

I'm somewhat reluctant to associate The Void with The Interdimensional Rift.

Nor should they be associated (at least as once in the same).
Minfilia defined a space between worlds (at least as far as Eorzeans are presently concerned) twice.

An Ascian is an immortal because its soul doesn't return to the aetherial realm when its host is defeated.
Instead, it flees to the place that lies between our world and the void.

Admittedly, your victory proved ephemeral, as Lahabrea was able to use a Crystal of Darkness to flee into the space that lies between our world and the void.

When you arrive in the Chrysalis, the Region title is given:

• EN: Aetherial Rift (Japanese titles match EN)
• FR: Fissure Interdimensionnelle (Interdimensional Fissure)
• DE: Zwischenwelt (World Between / Betwixt-Worlds)

They used the same name for the place Louisoix sent the Warriors of Light, though, so there might be several rifts.

[Belhi]

Here is the thing. Everything we have seen in game and without except what has come from the Ascians themselves points at Hydaelyn being both benevolent and caring. Even this recent quote suggests a protective mother. 'Fearing the moon she cast her children to the sea'. Its not just that. Look at Dragonsong and Answers which we know are written to be Hydaelyn's perspective.

This makes me think, that even if there is some truth in what the Ascians say, its a half truth. There are details and context missing.

It interests me that the first thing Hydaelyn says to the WoL is 'look, think, feel'. I have always felt Hydaelyn has very much wanted us to follow our own judgement. Whatever the reason, she has invested a hell of a lot in the WoL. I'm pretty convinced that at what seems to be a very late point in this conflict between light and dark the WoL is her trump card, possibly more so than any of the other players have realised. The Ascians say themselves that she expended a lot of her energy protecting her champion. She doesn't seem to want a mindless minion. Infact she has given us rather little direction, generally leaving us to do our own thing and rely on the wisdom of friends and allies. For someone she is so invested in that is surprisingly hands off.

On a side note, since Krile mentioned that different people's Echos tend to manifest different strengths I've been very curious what particular properties the WoL's Echo has. Makes me wonder if the 'beacon of light' thing might be kind of literal.

[Kurogaea]

It's that time of year again;


I'm guessing "the sea" would either by Hydaelyn (the planet) or the universe/aether/Lifestream/etc., since "the Star" also shows up... Not much to really work with in the first half, the second half though;

"the sea sundered in fourteen", now that is interesting... We have the Twelve, who are actually thirteen (Nald'Thal), but fourteen? Well, I'd take that as confirmation for Zodiark being the "fourteenth"... Alternatively we keep the Twelve as twelve, and Hydaelyn and Zodiark make up the remaining two.

Hmm...I assumed the "fourteen" was similar too the eorzean cycle of eras. Like Umbral and Astral. 14 times and we get the 7th Astral era. Sea sundered

my friend believed to be around the time when the void ark shot a hole into the "sea" of clouds revealing the void.

other stuff im not so sure yet

[Belhi]

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

I'd also point out again that nothing in game or out of it except the Ascians themselves has pointed to Hydaelyn as being anything but benevolent.
ffff

[Fenral]

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

I'm not saying they aren't antagonists, at least for the moment. I'm not saying their methods don't need work (a fact Eldibus has shown he understands). I am saying that the "root of all evil" label we've slapped on them is fairly naive, and not really true to the spirit of the series. "Oh, just beat all twelve fourteen of these totally inhuman overlords and everything will be peace, love, and rainbows? Sign me up!" It's... too simple?

And yes, I bring this up a lot, but we had precisely one character describe, in detail, how the sole purpose his entire existence was to surrender himself as a vessel for an ancient Allagan will (and an unbroken line of ancestors all groomed from birth for the same purpose for 5000 years), and never batted an eyelash because it was for the "light of hope." Not to mention Koh Rabntah, who may never regain control of her life, but it's okay because she gives us upgrades and tells us how wonderful we are. It's cool if we do it, because we're working for the "greater good," but if Ascians do it for the benefit of their world, their beliefs, it's evil? Just like that?

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

Exactly this. It's not that I think Lahabrea is going to be my best friend (though he totally is in my heart) and everything is going to be sunshine and rainbows, it's just that, even as far back as FFIII - you could even argue it in FFI, since awareness of being stuck in a perpetual time loop would probably mess me up rather badly as well - darkness wasn't evil for evil's sake. There's no reason to expect the Ascians to be. Everything that is there has hinted that there's more to the story we don't know, SE releasing only the tiniest carrot every patch so they keep people like us interested and talking.

[Cilia]

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

I'd also point out again that nothing in game or out of it except the Ascians themselves has pointed to Hydaelyn as being anything but benevolent.
ffff

I'm not saying the Ascians aren't antagonists, but their reasons for doing what they do haven't been explored yet beyond "Hydaelyn is bad and we need to resurrect Zodiark to off her." While what they do is very detrimental to us personally, on many levels, we still know very little about the big picture of what's going on with Hydaelyn (the Goddess) and Zodiark. Thus while their goal does seem to be genocide of all the mortal races on Hydaelyn (eventually)... the why is the big question.

Good villains aren't the kind who sit around thinking of ways to be evil. They're normal people forced into it, be it by their own personality or the situation they're in. Granted the Ascians are nigh-immortal sorcerers who command magicks far beyond mortals, and all of them (save perhaps Elidibus) fail to have any sort of sympathetic personality), but that still leaves their situation ambiguous. Why they believe Hydaelyn is a parasite that has to be burned out or the physical and aetheric planes will get messed up, why they need Zodiark back, what resurrecting Zodiark will do to Eorzea, what happened to Zodiark in the first place... etc etc. There's too many unanswered questions to just label them "generic evil overlord(s)." That's taking the easy way out.

As for Hydaelyn, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions - just because you mean well doesn't mean you do well, and what Hydaelyn's been doing doesn't sit well with the Ascians. Why?

[Nalien]

Good villains aren't the kind who sit around thinking of ways to be evil. They're normal people forced into it, be it by their own personality or the situation they're in. Granted the Ascians are nigh-immortal sorcerers who command magicks far beyond mortals, and all of them (save perhaps Elidibus) fail to have any sort of sympathetic personality), but that still leaves their situation ambiguous.

This is why I quite like the idea of Ascians actually being of this world, rather than there being some as-yet unknown second world. It actually makes their situation fairly sympathetic. They're immortal, cast out of this reality as Hydaelyn changes, of course they'd want to do something about it...

Could even potentially explain Derplanders descent into Darklander. The Echo appears to be something which can be developed, and it would appear that "immortality" is a part of that (see: The Sahagin Priest). Based on our fight with Ascian Prime, the Ascians also have the Echo... So... They were once mortals, got the Echo, died, didn't die, and then Hydaelyn changed. Not just as a result of time passing, but the very laws of existence kept changing, until eventually their old existence became something incompatible...

That would make for a very convincing horrible truth... They're no longer of this world, because it has been warped such that they're unable to properly exist in it, and that is the fate of all Echo users. I'd certainly be incline to agree with them at that point, were it not for the fact that we've debunked their immortality now... It fits fairly nicely with the theme of accepting death as a part of life, which was certainly one of the messages in Dragonsong... They developed immortality, viewed that as part of the gift ("why must you turn to empty bliss") rather than the curse it actually is. When the nature of their situation becomes apparent, they "break trust", start undoing the good they did in life ("turn the past to dust"), "seeking solace in the abyss" with Zodiark. As they fight back, Hydaelyn needs the Echo even more to deal with them, creating "a circle none can break"...