Gerun Oracles

[Anonymoose]

I'm somewhat reluctant to associate The Void with The Interdimensional Rift.

Nor should they be associated (at least as once in the same).
Minfilia defined a space between worlds (at least as far as Eorzeans are presently concerned) twice.

An Ascian is an immortal because its soul doesn't return to the aetherial realm when its host is defeated.
Instead, it flees to the place that lies between our world and the void.

Admittedly, your victory proved ephemeral, as Lahabrea was able to use a Crystal of Darkness to flee into the space that lies between our world and the void.

When you arrive in the Chrysalis, the Region title is given:

• EN: Aetherial Rift (Japanese titles match EN)
• FR: Fissure Interdimensionnelle (Interdimensional Fissure)
• DE: Zwischenwelt (World Between / Betwixt-Worlds)

They used the same name for the place Louisoix sent the Warriors of Light, though, so there might be several rifts.

[Cilia]

Im going to be honest, I don't really know where people are getting the sense that the Ascians aren't villains from. Regardless of their intentions they are responsible for carnage and suffering on a massive scale throughout history with no sign of regret or remorse even if necessary, and frankly seem to hold those who live on Hydaelyn with little regard and frankly sometimes a fair degree of contempt. That's ignoring the fact they are basically stealing the bodies of people to use has shells.

I'd also point out again that nothing in game or out of it except the Ascians themselves has pointed to Hydaelyn as being anything but benevolent.
ffff

I'm not saying the Ascians aren't antagonists, but their reasons for doing what they do haven't been explored yet beyond "Hydaelyn is bad and we need to resurrect Zodiark to off her." While what they do is very detrimental to us personally, on many levels, we still know very little about the big picture of what's going on with Hydaelyn (the Goddess) and Zodiark. Thus while their goal does seem to be genocide of all the mortal races on Hydaelyn (eventually)... the why is the big question.

Good villains aren't the kind who sit around thinking of ways to be evil. They're normal people forced into it, be it by their own personality or the situation they're in. Granted the Ascians are nigh-immortal sorcerers who command magicks far beyond mortals, and all of them (save perhaps Elidibus) fail to have any sort of sympathetic personality), but that still leaves their situation ambiguous. Why they believe Hydaelyn is a parasite that has to be burned out or the physical and aetheric planes will get messed up, why they need Zodiark back, what resurrecting Zodiark will do to Eorzea, what happened to Zodiark in the first place... etc etc. There's too many unanswered questions to just label them "generic evil overlord(s)." That's taking the easy way out.

As for Hydaelyn, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions - just because you mean well doesn't mean you do well, and what Hydaelyn's been doing doesn't sit well with the Ascians. Why?

[Nalien]

Good villains aren't the kind who sit around thinking of ways to be evil. They're normal people forced into it, be it by their own personality or the situation they're in. Granted the Ascians are nigh-immortal sorcerers who command magicks far beyond mortals, and all of them (save perhaps Elidibus) fail to have any sort of sympathetic personality), but that still leaves their situation ambiguous.

This is why I quite like the idea of Ascians actually being of this world, rather than there being some as-yet unknown second world. It actually makes their situation fairly sympathetic. They're immortal, cast out of this reality as Hydaelyn changes, of course they'd want to do something about it...

Could even potentially explain Derplanders descent into Darklander. The Echo appears to be something which can be developed, and it would appear that "immortality" is a part of that (see: The Sahagin Priest). Based on our fight with Ascian Prime, the Ascians also have the Echo... So... They were once mortals, got the Echo, died, didn't die, and then Hydaelyn changed. Not just as a result of time passing, but the very laws of existence kept changing, until eventually their old existence became something incompatible...

That would make for a very convincing horrible truth... They're no longer of this world, because it has been warped such that they're unable to properly exist in it, and that is the fate of all Echo users. I'd certainly be incline to agree with them at that point, were it not for the fact that we've debunked their immortality now... It fits fairly nicely with the theme of accepting death as a part of life, which was certainly one of the messages in Dragonsong... They developed immortality, viewed that as part of the gift ("why must you turn to empty bliss") rather than the curse it actually is. When the nature of their situation becomes apparent, they "break trust", start undoing the good they did in life ("turn the past to dust"), "seeking solace in the abyss" with Zodiark. As they fight back, Hydaelyn needs the Echo even more to deal with them, creating "a circle none can break"...

[Kuwagami]

It could explain many things.

=> Why Elidibus doesn't outright want us dead but rather would like to work with us, and convinced darklander since we were *really* reluctant to do so. He knows the truth, wants the cycle to end (former echo users wanting to break free from their curse, bringing forth new echo users as a defense from Hydaelyn, who then may turn into ascians again (after all, there are a LOT of ascians as we saw in SMN's questline) and try to break free from their curse. And so the loop goes, until Hydaelyn fades away from exhaustion, from protecting her children from her former and now forsaken children).

(That, in fact, would also be a happy ending for ascians, wouldn't it ?)

If Zodiark is the way for echo users to be granted their deserved death, then maybe his return might be a good thing. IF a balance can be achieved so that everything isn't swallowed into nothingness due to Zodiark's awakening.

=> It would also explain the similarities between the sahagin priest's and Lahabrea's disparitions. After all, the echo-using sahagin just disappeared along with Leviathan when we fended the snake. Well, that would mean Lahabrea is RIP at last (or perhaps not, as Nidhogg's eye is still intact).


On a "let's make sense out of it" point of view, why would the ascians, as former echo users, want to destroy Hydaelyn and everything else ?

What could be, is that at first they thought it was a blessing, and tried to continue using their gift to do good things. But as time passed, and with all the inhabitants killing, destroying each other, they grew tired of ever seeing their beloved ones dieing, all their efforts going to nothingness. They began to resent Hydaelyn for their everlasting misery and all their efforts amounting to naugh in the big picture. So they tried to destroy it all (1st Calamity), failed, and got casted out by their Mother. From that point onwards, it may have become a battle between the 2 sides, and the conflict raising more and more ascians as the time passed.

What doesn't make sense with my theory for now :

• where is Zodiark in all of this ? Why do the Ascians worship him ?
• What does this have with the Warriors of Light (if we are to call that anyone having a crystal of Light granted by Hydaelyn) ? Fight the Ascians ? Shouldn't the Echo be enough ? What does the Blessing of Light bring that the echo doesn't ?
• Why did people have access to the echo in the first place ? What is Hydaelyn's interest in such a thing ?

Interestingly enough, all of those points could be answered if Zodiark is the one granting the echo, rather than Hydaelyn.
The echo would originally grant access to untold hitory, revealing whatever really happened before the era of men to someone with the echo. Said history would bring "true" light to the world, bringing forth a revolt against Hydaelyn among the echo users.

Hydaelyn would then retort by giving her Blessing to some chosen echo users, to bring the whole history to the world rather than only Zodiark's version. And the fight continued in a slatemate until now.

Following that, Elidibus may be a former WoL who would have had access to a part of the whole truth. Why he would not share it with us though is stiull beyond me, unless he has some ulterior motive than the return to the true nature of the universe.

I actually would find it very interesting if we met a willing Ascian host at some point. We fight trying to save them, only to learn they don't want to be saved.

It depends if the Ascians can possess someone and still let said someone still think by themselves. Iirc, Thancred didn't have clear memories of what happened while he was Lahabrea, and he is the only one we know ever coming back from that state alive

[CyrilLucifer]

snip

A lot of that is basically what I've been silently theorizing for a while.

That being said, I mean if you're really empathetic you can understand the Ascian desire for a host. Even assuming they weren't at some point mortal, they're aether balls. Their senses are different entirely - physically, what can they feel? What can't they feel? Just like with some of the Voidsent, they, too, may seek some of those senses they are unable to have in their true forms. I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just musing.

And if we add the guess that some Ascians were mortal at some point? That's quite possibly even sadder, since they will have lost their original forms and can no longer exist in the state they were comfortable with. They'll get over it eventually, but I'm sure it was very challenging at first.

I actually would find it very interesting if we met a willing Ascian host at some point. We fight trying to save them, only to learn they don't want to be saved.

[Nalien]

If Zodiark is the way for echo users to be granted their deserved death, then maybe his return might be a good thing. IF a balance can be achieved so that everything isn't swallowed into nothingness due to Zodiark's awakening.

I was thinking more along the lines of Zodiark being an "old" God. Going off the Gerun Oracles, we have a history and pre-history, with Hydaelyn wanting to protect Her children ("for fear of the Moon"). I would suspect that is why Hydaelyn changed things, Her children (mortals) could not exist in the old way, so to hell with it. She set up barriers and started warping the world to suit mortals. Zodiark likely dislikes that, as do perhaps some of our other God-like beings (Ramuhs musings), and wants to return things to how they were. That wouldn't be good for mortals, but mortals who became immortal? No reason to suspect they'd have any problems, so they throw their lot in with Zodiark, who'd burn out Hydaelyn, giving the Ascians a world they're actually a part of again. They don't want to die now that they're immortal, they just want a world in which they aren't rejected from, and the pre-history world fits the bill.

You know... If I place Ascians as mortals turned immortal, I interpret "His doom" somewhat differently... Where did the Heart of Sabik originate from? What would someone with the Echo, someone who was perhaps meant to deal with that threat see, if they got up close and personal with it? A calamitous pre-world where mortals couldn't exist, that gradually becomes more and more appealing as Hydaelyn changes and adapts to resist Zodiark (and potentially all immortals) on a fundamental level? I'm sure the idea of a world without mortals would suck, at first, after all some of your best friends are mortals. After every mortal you ever knew has passed on, I'm sure you'd eventually stop caring about their plight though. From the point of view of the Ascians, so what if all mortal life on Hydaelyn would be extinguished if they succeed? Nanamo isn't going to live forever anyway. We only care because we still live in the moment, we're mortal, or at least we think we are...

I actually would find it very interesting if we met a willing Ascian host at some point. We fight trying to save them, only to learn they don't want to be saved.

In a similar vein, it would be quite nice to meet some "immortals" who aren't forgetting who they once were and clinging to their immortality, one who wants to be mortal. Given we've killed a few high profile Ascians at this point, it would be kind of interesting if an entire faction developed that essentially just goes; "This is insane, I don't care about immortality if it means I have to act like that, please just kill us, I miss my pet goldfish from the 2AE..."

[Anonymoose]

I was thinking more along the lines of Zodiark being an "old" God.

This is one thing I've come back to over and over since the original GC Midlander thread. Before all the Ivalice references were dragged into this, Eorzea was based on Greece. If you consider the Twelve as the Olympians, they sit atop two fallen orders of gods.

First, the Primordials. In Eorzea, these would be represented as the forces from which all things were generated, and originally it seems that these are the beings that the Beastmen are calling from the aether; it's what they truly believe the primals to be. This is later proven to be wrong, but you have a manifestation of the idea nonetheless.

But what about the Titans? Beings cast down by the gods who came after - the new order. It works on a lot of levels (primarily because what we have to go on is so vague, of course), but even comparing the leader of the Titans to Zodiark seems like a slam dunk at a superficial glance. Cronus was the youngest of the first generation of Titans, Zodiark was the youngest of Ivalice's gods. Cronus led a Golden Age with no law, Zodiark was so strong that all things before him were undone, leaving him the King of Precepts. Cronus and his followers were cast into an abyss for their transgressions, Zodiark and the Ascians seem to be waging their war utilizing the void. Cronus is often equated or confused with Chronus, the god of time, Zodiark has power over time.

Rather than being the Twelve, the Ascians would be the gods they overthrew (whose first generation was also twelve). All of those similarities could be what led SE to invoke Zodiark from Ivalice for the Ascian god's name in ARR to begin with, considering he could then be connected to Ophiuchus, the thirteenth zodiac (Alpha Star: Sabik). And before Zodiark (XII), the constellation was was represented Elidibus (Tactics), whose form was a serpent. Ophiuchus bears the serpent constellation Serpens (Alpha Star: Unukalhai). Lots of connections. (Lots of coincidences...?)

I'm just stirring the pot, though. When things are so open-ended that you can barely take any basics for a granted, I hesitate to struggle with the specifics. It's a time vampire. (Damn you, Zodiark.)

[Frederick22]

This is why I quite like the idea of Ascians actually being of this world, rather than there being some as-yet unknown second world. It actually makes their situation fairly sympathetic. They're immortal, cast out of this reality as Hydaelyn changes, of course they'd want to do something about it...

Could even potentially explain Derplanders descent into Darklander. The Echo appears to be something which can be developed, and it would appear that "immortality" is a part of that (see: The Sahagin Priest). Based on our fight with Ascian Prime, the Ascians also have the Echo... So... They were once mortals, got the Echo, died, didn't die, and then Hydaelyn changed. Not just as a result of time passing, but the very laws of existence kept changing, until eventually their old existence became something incompatible...

That would make for a very convincing horrible truth... They're no longer of this world, because it has been warped such that they're unable to properly exist in it, and that is the fate of all Echo users. I'd certainly be incline to agree with them at that point, were it not for the fact that we've debunked their immortality now... It fits fairly nicely with the theme of accepting death as a part of life, which was certainly one of the messages in Dragonsong... They developed immortality, viewed that as part of the gift ("why must you turn to empty bliss") rather than the curse it actually is. When the nature of their situation becomes apparent, they "break trust", start undoing the good they did in life ("turn the past to dust"), "seeking solace in the abyss" with Zodiark. As they fight back, Hydaelyn needs the Echo even more to deal with them, creating "a circle none can break"...

I think you may be starting to overthink this ...

If Zodiark turns out to be the 14th that betrayed Hidaelyn, all what you said is wothless.

SE usually doesnt complicated things, so far I saw is usually more simple than we thought it would be.

XD

[myahele]

Due to Lahabrea actively ascending people (echo users?) into Asciens and how the Echo can be given to people; I believe that he planned on at least ascending as many people into Ascien-like being since it seems that Zodiark awakening will kill of most life in Hydaelyn.

Although it is interesting though, when you 1st encounter Elidibus "Have the laws of man grown so twisted in my absence that it is now permitted to lay hands upon an Emissary?"

But most importantly: Elidibus says "They survived the 7th Ardor and are stronger now in the gift" There's that number 7 again

As it stands there's 3 known echo users that were saved by Hydaelyn: WoL, Krile and Minfilia (Elidibus says she survived the Ardor, too) Maybe it's necessary to kill/sacrifice a "special" Echo user?

Lahabrea tried to start the Ardor (in 2.0 and 3.0) which should have killed the WoL. Nabriales had a failed attempt in Isle of Val which should also have killed of Krile. Minfilia survived one prior, but she was also kidnapped by Nabriales where he intended to do another Ardor/ rejoining.

I guess what I am trying to say is that each would-be Ardor had one of Hydaelyn's echo user present

[dragoelete]

I'm not saying the Ascians aren't antagonists, but their reasons for doing what they do haven't been explored yet beyond "Hydaelyn is bad and we need to resurrect Zodiark to off her." While what they do is very detrimental to us personally, on many levels, we still know very little about the big picture of what's going on with Hydaelyn (the Goddess) and Zodiark. Thus while their goal does seem to be genocide of all the mortal races on Hydaelyn (eventually)... the why is the big question.

Good villains aren't the kind who sit around thinking of ways to be evil. They're normal people forced into it, be it by their own personality or the situation they're in. Granted the Ascians are nigh-immortal sorcerers who command magicks far beyond mortals, and all of them (save perhaps Elidibus) fail to have any sort of sympathetic personality), but that still leaves their situation ambiguous. Why they believe Hydaelyn is a parasite that has to be burned out or the physical and aetheric planes will get messed up, why they need Zodiark back, what resurrecting Zodiark will do to Eorzea, what happened to Zodiark in the first place... etc etc. There's too many unanswered questions to just label them "generic evil overlord(s)." That's taking the easy way out.

As for Hydaelyn, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions - just because you mean well doesn't mean you do well, and what Hydaelyn's been doing doesn't sit well with the Ascians. Why?

my question is, does it really even matter on the why? there planning a genocide the reasoning behind it doesn't mean jack to me. if they plan a genocide there intent doesn't matter. if they were to find another way to go about it that killed hydaelyn and not every other being living on the planet then their motives would matter to me. but as it is a don't care one whit what they want as long as they are trying to do a genocide.