3.2 Sephiroth

[SaitoHikari]

(snipped because character limit)

Would also like to add that clearing the Lv. 50 SCH quest before unlocking Wanderer's Palace HM results in different dialogue from the two adventurers in that quest, from what I can tell. They make a remark about how you already know the story of the Tonberries there.

[Nalien]

snip

I know, I'm simply hoping that there is more to them, seeing as they're pretty much a direct reference along the lines of Crystal Tower. Crystal Tower wasn't just a tower that showed up for a cheap Final Fantasy III reference, there was some substantial lore behind it. I would hope the Warring Triad are handled in a similar fashion, not just because they're a massive reference to Final Fantasy VI, but because I'm honestly sick of how Primals are handled. I would hope our interactions with them boarder on something similar to our interactions with Ramuh, although even Ramuh left something to be desired.

That said, I expect nothing. We'll get the typical "Rawr, I'm a Primal!" and perhaps some exposition from Unukalhai amounting to "trees loved this guy". Alexander was honestly the last straw, perhaps they'll eventually redeem him, but at this point I'm just sick of what little character Primals have being wasted or nonexistent. Perhaps they've just become too standard, perhaps Shiva and Thordan created an unwelcome shift (though given I'm still very much anticipating FC Primal summoning, they were quite welcome), but it's been a long time since I've felt like I'm fighting "Gods". Ravana, for as much as I like him, might as well just be a Gnath on steroids at this point. We never see the damage these creatures cause, we only ever get a hint in the main scenario (Ravana verses Shiva, for example).

I know people are probably sick of me going on about Final Fantasy IX, but that is a game that got "Primals" right. Huge let down when you finally get to summon them, but when you see Odin or Atomos for the first time? F*cking hell XIV needs something like that. Bahamut certainly got that treatment with the End of an Era, I just want to see something like that in game. End of an Era was a very long time ago now... Remind me why these things are a threat, instead of just going "Alexander will drain all the aether! Lets leave him alone for months!". Alexander very much fails the rule of "show, don't tell". We're told he is a thread, while all we see is a pathetic giant that can't even crawl out of a river... If the Warring Triad are handled the same... Like I said, I hope there is more to them. Show me that they're ancient gods, don't just show me another angry Primal that does nothing and expect me to give a sh*t when I'm told they were a serious threat.

[Kuwagami]

Tbh, I kinda hope Alexander will receive the same treatment in FFXIV than it did in Type-0.

Goes up, destroys everything, kills everyone who summoned it by consuming their life over time. Big ass ending fight with the core while Illuminati goblins are losing their lives and begging us to save them. Enrage timer is when the last goblin dies.

Now THAT would make it a bit more interesting (both in lore and raid mechanics) for me.

[Belhi]

I think one of the issues with Primals on an End of an Era scale is simply put the WoL is kind of screwed against something of that scale. It requires something of a similar scale to take it down in that situation which pulls control out of our hands usually.

That said, it would have been cool if when Alex came out of the lake, where his foot landed all the plant life phased to be dead.

[Nalien]

I think one of the issues with Primals on an End of an Era scale is simply put the WoL is kind of screwed against something of that scale. It requires something of a similar scale to take it down in that situation which pulls control out of our hands usually.

They don't need to go causing a Calamity, but it would be nice if they did something... Heavensward actually did an OK job of that I guess, Ravana and Shiva had a nice little fight, and Bismarcks second introduction had him eating islands and fighting Garleans... One thing I'd love to see done, jumping off the back of IXs Atomos, is for SE to set up a two versions of a zone; One is an instance version of, lets say Ishgard (since it is actually fairly similar to Lindblum), that you first encounter. Then a Primal shows up, wreaks the place, and you gain access to the "real" version. Ishgard is actually a pretty good example for this, we can tell it was attacked by dragons, right? Sure, but we don't know what it looked like before, we don't know how the people of the Brume were doing, we're lacking context in that regard, and I think an "instanced" version of the city pre-destruction would be a nice way to give us context and highlight the threats we face...

Then there are places we don't visit... Remember how there is a Castrum off in the distance if you look out from Monument Tower? Slap something like that in the distance of the Hinterlands. Alexander pops up, have him destroy it instantly. Done, he is established as an actual threat; We don't want him doing that to Idyllshire. Bit harder to work something like that for the Warring Triad, I suppose, given their containment, but there is no reason we cannot have him display his strength in cutscene or combat. One reason I'm fairly fond of Regula is his boss fight in the Research Facility, we see him deal with a bunch of enemies alone. His actual fight leaves something to be desired, but the introduction was spot on. Meanwhile, most every Primal just pops up and goes (themselves or through exposition) "Haha! I'm going to do something bad!". It's just rubbed me the wrong way for too long now...

Just another reason I want FC Summoning/Roaming Primals, I suppose. That's an easy way to give them an actual presence, enemies in Diadem or the odd Hunt target honestly cause me more worry that Primals at this point. Diadem mobs are the bane of my Botanist/Miners existence, meanwhile Primals are a joke because I only ever encounter them with a group... The Odin FATE is perhaps my favorite iteration of a Primal because of this; He displays more character in that FATE than most of his peers, and he is (or was, I haven't had the fortune to encounter him post-Heavensward) actually a serious "challenge". The Odin FATE seemed like a real skirmish with a God, while most of the Trials are more like a dance, often with a toddler throwing a tantrum. Take that as a put down for the Primals personalities, or your average Duty Finder party, it works both ways...

[Fenral]

This is why discarding the 3AE expo dump character(s) for cheep feelz was a stupid move. Two (plus one) people who may very well remember the threat the Triad posed and could have given us a chance to Echo into them for a firsthand look. I will never stop being disgusted at that waste of potential.

But no, Nalien, not sick of you going on about Final Fantasy IX, because that game did get summons right and it's 15 years old! Those FMVs could render in real-time on my old laptop, but that carnage was the real deal. Before anyone plays the MMO card, WildStar managed an Alexander-scale giant death robot, instanced in the field, that actually attacked you until you managed to blow it up via story progression. Leaving aside its million other flaws, the visual progression of areas as you cleared story quests was top shelf.

[Belhi]

Well there could be engine restrictions at work there. There may be a limit to how effectively they can phase the game terrain. Likewise there is issues with having multiple instanced versions of the same area as it can split up the player base. Id say the only time it would work ok is in situations like dungeons where the dungeon is the first time you see the location and after the dungeon it opens up in its aftermath state.

Personally I did find Alexander somewhat underwhelming and frankly the fact that he is about at least 4 or 5 times smaller in the game world than he would have to be for us to have the space we have inside the raid also kind of throws me off.

As for Primals, while Alex feels a bit underwhelming, I think Bismarck was certainly handled well and Thordan's fight was incredibly epic.

[Kuwagami]

Personally I did find Alexander somewhat underwhelming and frankly the fact that he is about at least 4 or 5 times smaller in the game world than he would have to be for us to have the space we have inside the raid also kind of throws me off.

When you.. ahem, go under the map, you can see that he is actually pretty huge. We may enter by a tiny part, but I don't think we do the whole raid in it. We may acually go pretty far into the primal's shell.

Question for anyone with a good memory : Do anyone remember if Alexander's entry was there before we finish the MSQ of 3.0 ? He starts moving at that point so that would make sense if he isn't there before.
If he isn't, that could open a way for him to destroy a part of the Hinterlands, because it sets a precedent of different map displays for different players within the same instance.

Heck, even if he doesn't affect the land we can go on, I'd like him to destroy something in the background. Something visible.

[Nalien]

Likewise there is issues with having multiple instanced versions of the same area as it can split up the player base.

That's the thing, it potentially wouldn't.

The thing kicking around back when Mor Dhona started changing, and some people wanted that to be story based (heck, I'd like to go back and walk around the old one), was that Mor Dhona was a hub and splitting players across several hubs wasn't particularly good (though the Party Finder now perhaps renders that moot). What I'm suggesting would be more like the Vault in 3.1, except not quite a dungeon. You go in, see what the place is like, see how people are living there, then you leave. Story progresses, the place gets hit by whatever, you come back and can see what's changed. Now it's a persistent zone and potentially a hub.

The pre-disaster (be that Primal, Garlean, or whatever in design) version of the zone would not be something you persist in for an extended period of time. Perhaps Final Fantasy IX and Lindblum is a bad example there, since a fair portion of content occurs before Atomos noms the place. It would certainly be better to flesh out an area like that, before stripping it away, but yeah, not particularly practical in an MMO...

Alternatively, think along the lines of 2.55 and the Rising Stones, just bigger and with a more dramatic threat. We built up that place, it was essentially "home", then we lost access to it. Nothing really happened with it, since the Crystal Braves weren't the biggest threat in the world, but when we finally returned it was a mess, and now it's been cleaned up. I'd be incline to think A Realm Reborn did well there, when we return to the Waking Sands after Livia's assault, but I think my experience of that was ruined by the fact that it wasn't an instance at the time... Rather killed the mood when dozens of other players were standing around... Still, Livia got plenty of buildup, both there and scenes in Castrum Centri, if a Primal could get a fraction of that, I'd be happy. Sadly I doubt Sephirot will, since it's probably already too late... We've seen nothing of the Triad, we've just been told they're bad news...

This is why discarding the 3AE expo dump character(s) for cheep feelz was a stupid move. Two (plus one) people who may very well remember the threat the Triad posed and could have given us a chance to Echo into them for a firsthand look. I will never stop being disgusted at that waste of potential.

What little hope I have rests on the developers remembering that the Echo is a thing... It's still a fairly jarring way to show us a threat, but it works regardless. Imagine if Totally-Not-Elidibus triggered Echo cutscenes when he handed us the artifacts that helped us unlock Bismarck and Ravana Extreme? Would have added immensely to his character, and potentially given us some real insight into the Primals in question.

I almost want future Extremes to all be handled by the Wandering Minstrel... That at least adds a little flare to proceedings... Extremes have long just been generic quests given by a generic quest giver (no offense Urianger). They started out reasonably OK, with the whole sacrificial ritual coming up, but lord knows whatever happened to that plot point... They quickly just became "Oh, you're here for you loot? Lets get this over with...", when they could have given the Primals some much needed development. They could have fleshed out Leviathan, instead I just sit there going "Wait, after complaining at me for challenging you with trickery last time, you're falling for it again?", the Wandering Minstrel would fix that right up, and is a lovely excuse to give no extra lore. It's lazy writing, but Extremes seem to get that anyway, so I'd rather they at least just be honest about being lazy...

But no, Nalien, not sick of you going on about Final Fantasy IX, because that game did get summons right and it's 15 years old!

I think the only thing I can fault it on was giving us the summons. The Odin I watched in cutscenes was far superior to the Odin I got to use, partly why IX is definitely my favorite version of Alexander. Great buildup, amazing reveal, and then I don't get to disappoint myself by ever getting to summon it myself.

Granted, here I want to summon Primals, but that's mostly because the entire system sounds better than the Summoners of old, it's just stuck in development hell... All this game needs is Campaign and Free Company Summoning would be absolutely amazing. I can just imagine a server fighting a losing battle, about to lose a location to the Garleans (or whatever threat would warrant Campaign style content), only for a group to come in and throw Ifrit at them, completely turning the tide. It would have the same wow factor that Ramuh did in the XV demo, potentially more.

[Yuyuka3]

Question for anyone with a good memory : Do anyone remember if Alexander's entry was there before we finish the MSQ of 3.0 ? He starts moving at that point so that would make sense if he isn't there before.
If he isn't, that could open a way for him to destroy a part of the Hinterlands, because it sets a precedent of different map displays for different players within the same instance.

No, he isn't there! Only the barrier is.