Gerun Oracles

[Fenral]

But we'll decide it was the right call after all, because Zodiark is evil end doesn't deserve to live! Light wins, yay! Or something.

Or perhaps it's something more literal in nature, like how the moon is almost always in the planet's shadow, thus the planet can be thought of as taking most of the Sun's light for itself.

[Anonymoose]

By bet, The 12 origenal Ascian Overlords are The Twelve (where as these are simply semi-mortal substitutes) while Elidibus and THE ORIGENAL Warrior of Light make up the 14.

For a while, I was thinking that 12 "transmigratory" Ascians were the Twelve, and the two "original" Ascians (Elidibus and Lahabrea) made fourteen, but I didn't see a white robe in the Fourteen Overlords cutscene and I couldn't work the math back out to line it all up, again, lol.

Then again, the outfits might not be conclusive. We didn't see white robes until 2.1 concept art, and have you ever noticed that all the Ascians in the first Chrysalis cutscene are the wrong models? They're all lacking their "overlord shoulder pads" and wearing black masks, but speaking with overlord name plates. I can see the masks; perhaps their "real" ones haven't been designed by the dev. team yet. But to just throw them out there in underling robes, too? Anyway, I digress, outfits might not mean jack. Either interpretation (my discarded one, your proposed one) could be accurate.

The thing that really gives me the most pause, though, is that (in addition to the moogles and several NPCs), the narrator had said that members among Twelve have smiled upon / spoken to us recently, and their sentiments imply that they are on Hydaelyn's side. Taken along with "Eorzea, a land loved of the Gods" being the preface of pretty much every PR stint, the idea of Ascians being the Twelve is so irksome. Granted, the narrator was Louisoix, which is a whole other can of worms.

Even today, on some level, I suspect that the Age of the Gods ended when the thirteenth and youngest god (Zodiark) turned out to be the most powerful, threatening to undo the boundaries of Creation held in place by the Crystal (and thus return all to void), and thus the mortal world was fashioned and the Gods banished - and, spiteful, they fell in with Zodiark. But even then, to have the very premise of the world setting be a lie laid over the black-robed miscreants the Crystal told us were evil in the opening cutscene seems just so lame, lol.

It sure would make that French poem poignant, though, yeah? Darkness wants to sacrifice all life to the Gods? Ohooo! (But so, so lame.)

Now that we've set ourselves as enemies and killed 3 of the 12 Overlords, we threaten to disterbe The Ballence in Hydaelyn's favor and destroy Zodiark's. And that nee profacy may hint at a FF3 style "Flood of Light" thus why Darklander and his crew were brought in.

Ever since 2.1, Elidibus has hinted upon this at every turn. I bought into it for a while, myself, but the longer it goes on, the more I suspect that the answer is too easy. Granted, XIV is full of easy answers and "if it quacks like a duck" moments, these days, so I could easily be wrong here, but I find something about it suspicious. I'm really hoping that Elidibus is just trying to fill us with doubt and by the time we realize he's the biggest threat, it'll be way too late to stop him easily.

Let's not forget the last time I had "that feeling" though.
(Rejection of deathlike-slumber Nanamo).

JP Text

Thanks so much! The original translation I was given was quite close (as evidenced by the fact that the English version was itself quite close to that), but I was able to put it back in a similar format (poetic divisions). Each language tends to have an interesting nuance - JP's this year, by far, is the repetition in the latter two lines:

- The Star Fears the Moon / A great many children She sets upon the sea
- The Moon Hates the Star / A great many children He returns to the sea

Seems to reinforces the idea that Zodiark was sent away and He, in vengeance, sends things back.

With regards to the Moon, given the presence of the statue and its significance to the Ascians/WoDs, has anyone considered the possibility that it was once an actual habitable world? Lahabrea has oft referenced Hydaelyn as a parasite or cancer and it wouldn't surprise me to discover she stole the aether from Zodiark's creation and killed it to improve her own. It's an educated shot in the dark but it would explain a lot if it were the case.

It's a solid theory, given what we know. The main thing that makes me cautious is that every association with Zodiark has been about chaos and death and darkness - the exact opposite of hospitable environments. In order to make Zodiark more powerful again, the natural order has to be interrupted and mass bloodshed needs to occur. We need to account for that somehow in "this is inadvertantly all Hydaelyn's fault" theories. I suppose one could work from a basic assumption that Zodiark's current nature is a result of his vengeful state.

[Alisa180]

All this talk about Eorzea's moon makes me think of some random, possibly significant, musings I've had.

In Eorzea's mythology, the goddess of the moon, Menphina, actually has some notable connections to Harlone, the goddess of war and the patron deity of Ishgard. Both of them are associated with the element of ice, and both of their marks are located in the Coerthas Central Highlands. And to quote from the Astrologian questline:

"The Spear is the gate to the sixth heaven, where the Fury resides in a palace of ice carved by Her own spear─ice formed of moonbeams collected by the Lover, Menphina."

I think the point I'm trying to make is, if there are significant going-ons with the moon, its only natural that it would crop up during the Ishgard expansion, given the links between Harlone and Menphina, if I'm making any sense here. (Also, Dragonsong makes mention of the 'lover's moon' in reference to Hraesvelgr and Shiva, for whatever that's worth).

On a broader note, I just noticed something else. Each of the Twelve have either an 'Astral' or 'Umbral' association. And I was going to write more about it here, but I think what I was about to write verges into 'reading too much into it' territory. Or maybe not. Its hard to tell.

I play/half-RP a Keeper of the Moon, complete with having chosen Menphina as her guardian. Some of the thoughts thrown around regarding the moon bring up some...uncomfortable questions regarding her faith. For all of its disparging of faith in many ways, such as Ishgard's reverence of King Thordan and the Knights Twelve, in other ways the game has been surprisingly respectful of it. To quote Lucia:

LUCIA
This is it, then? Go well, my friend. I shall pray to the Fury for your preservation.
...Hm? Mayhap you think it strange that a daughter of Garlemald should pray? I do not blame you─I used to think it passing strange myself.
But that all changed when I discovered something dearer to me than mine own life. Thereafter, praying seemed the most natural thing in the world.

I think the point I'm trying to make is, the dev team can't do anything *too* radical with the moon, or they risk destabilizing faith in Menphina. Which would bring up all kinds of lore tangles, most prominently with Keepers. It doesn't help that Keepers are one of the most 'spiritually attuned' races, which is likely why they have the highest base MIND rating. The lore team has been meticulous enough that I suspect they're aware of this as well. It will be interesting to see how they handle it. (Or maybe I'm reading too much into this. But I still think the fact that the moon is a significant part of a playable race's lore is something that should be considered when theorizing.)

(I was only half-awake when I wrote this so apologies if its not very coherent.)

[Alberel]

It's a solid theory, given what we know. The main thing that makes me cautious is that every association with Zodiark has been about chaos and death and darkness - the exact opposite of hospitable environments. In order to make Zodiark more powerful again, the natural order has to be interrupted and mass bloodshed needs to occur. We need to account for that somehow in "this is inadvertantly all Hydaelyn's fault" theories. I suppose one could work from a basic assumption that Zodiark's current nature is a result of his vengeful state?

It could be as simple as destroying Hydaelyn's creations releases their aether for Zodiark to take it back. The 'natural order' as it stands now has all aether returning to Hydaelyn and the only way for Zodiark to get it back would be to disrupt that. To those living on Hydaelyn that would seem 'evil' but to those who suffered the destruction of their home world it would merely be survival.

[Alisa180]

Here's another point to add to the discussion: There's a subtle theme of 'the true story behind the legend' in HW. This was brought up in the 14-hour Anniversary Lore Panel, regarding Seal Rock, but its cropped up in other ways as well. For example, the moogles, the Churning Mists, and the Twelveswood moogles' legend of King Moogle Mog and their 'descent from the heavens.' It occurred in a more harsh manner in regards to the story of King Thordan and the Knights Twelve.

Elidibius said what Urianger read at the end of 3.1 was the world's 'true history', but as we've seen on repeated occasions, anything short of seeing the history for one's own eyes tends to not be the full story, and can even be outright deceiving. Even if everything he says is true, I would bet gil that there's another side to the story, or facts that he is omitting. Facts that would inform us that we are making the right choice in the long run by sticking with Hydaelyn.

[Cilia]

With regards to the Moon, given the presence of the statue and its significance to the Ascians/WoDs, has anyone considered the possibility that it was once an actual habitable world? Lahabrea has oft referenced Hydaelyn as a parasite or cancer and it wouldn't surprise me to discover she stole the aether from Zodiark's creation and killed it to improve her own. It's an educated shot in the dark but it would explain a lot if it were the case.

That was my first guess upon seeing Elidibus standing on the moon. No joke.

Now, I know there's precious little evidence to support this, which is why I didn't share it with anyone, but...

But we'll decide it was the right call after all, because Zodiark is evil end doesn't deserve to live! Light wins, yay! Or something.

To be fair, our perceptions are going to be colored by the fact that Hydaelyn is our creator. Of course we love Her and want Her to win - isn't that how She's made us?

[Theodric]

I'd quite like for it to eventually turn out that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark are both as bad as each other and need to be dealt with. Perhaps then the story could move beyond the 'Warrior of Light' because there's only so many times we can receive a 'blessing' to defeat yet another foe before it becomes rather stale. It's why I was hoping that we would lose quite a bit at the end of ARR - though sadly that wasn't the case at all.

[myahele]

With the revelations of many things (like the Sild'hih, Dragonsong, etc) perhaps Zodiark might not be so bad after all, lol.

Despite what the Gerun Chronicles says (The star is fearful of the moon; moon hate the star) Elidibus is more or less trying to "save" the planet by bringing in the WoD and doesn't want the Triad to be awakened.

I think that Elidibus simply doesn't not wan't a world to die/ be aetherically drained ... afterall, whats the point of Zodiark ruling over a dead star?

Maybe Zodiark wants to merge/ "rejoin" with Hydaelyn again to make One Crystal,but in order to do so She must be weakened enough?

[Nalien]

snip

I actually had a thought on this...

From the poems various translations, I get a sense that Hydaelyn, in an age before man, spread Her children among the sea, which I'm assuming to be space. What if "Her children" are the Twelve? Each one having their own section of space to own, with Menphinas including the moon, Halones being the sixth heaven, etc.

We've got a myth where Midgardsormr was "created" by Althyk and Nymeia, and we've got a fact that he came from spaaaaaaaaaace. Something I've been pondering since the Astrologian lore gave us the various celestial gates actually...

So, before time, for fear of Zodiark, Hydaelyn spreads Her children (the Twelve) across the sea, splitting it into fourteen (the Twelve, Hydaelyn, Zodiark). At some point, Althyk and Nymeia collaborate to send Midgardsormr back to Hydaelyn. Why? Well, if the moon is part of Menphinas domain, and it's now a dead rock with a statue of Zodiark on it... Perhaps the Ascians didn't just go after Hydaelyn...

What's more, we've currently got six heavens, which combine an elements/Twelve Astral and Umbral versions... As if they've been joined... Given everything should have been split and given duality... One might say they underwent a... Rejoining...

[Fenral]

It's not often I get to put my background in Classical Religions to use, so I'm just going to leave some notes here for others to pore over, since everything started somewhere.


Final Fantasy, at least as far back as when FFIII really outlined a recurring mythology, has modeled it's "balance" after one of the oldest constructions known: the concept of Yin and Yang. Final Fantasy XIV has borrowed this superficially in its Astral and Umbral cycles, but with a twist: we seem keen on returning everything to light. This isn't anything revolutionary, it's even older than Christ.

Both have solid foundations going back thousands of years, and neither is really "superior" to the other in their own context (Zoroastrian "light" is quite temperate and non-dogmatic, a universal "good" that isn't quite "good" as you normally think of it). The problem is what happens when these two collide.

The Frashokereti is pretty intense. Evil is destroyed forever and the world returns to its state at creation, though individual identity is retained. However, in Taoist philosophy, good and evil are entirely perceptional, and intertwined as such that one cannot exist without the other. For one side to "win," if that were even possible, it would consequentially obliterate itself.

It could be shaken up so that Eldibus is really evil and trying to convince poor, mourning Uri that the dark needs to win for everyone to have a happy ending, but for now I think it's safe to assume Eldibus is in the Taoist camp, while we children of Hydaelyn think Light needs to win.

Really, we're still stuck on the question of what happens if either side wins, and the consequences of that victory. It could be all roses, a world where everything is good and we walk without shadow. The Ascians seem keen on returning us to oblivion, but that's probably not their goal for all of creation, since they're pretty attached to their own lives and Zodiark. I assume there's something they're after besides oblivion.

The third option is if either side "wins," the universe itself reverts to some primordial state without the boundaries that define us. This is most clearly defined in Final Fantasy III, where the Cloud of Darkness (and theoretical Cloud of Light) is the agent of that end. FFXIV's Cloud of Darkness seems to be different, but that kind of begs the question of why so much effort went into that callback to begin with...