Gerun Oracles

[Nalien]

I dread to go digging for obscure interviews Yoshida has made, but I do recall something along the lines of "We're working on it, but it has to make sense with the lore first" some time around 2.5 and the lead up to Heavensward, think with Heavensward he specifically mentioned it needing content as well, since even I'll admit it would be a wasted concept in this game... Slap them in for Besieged/Campaign in XI and you've got something bloody amazing though.

After Heavensward though, well one of my old predictions for it may come true;

Ysayle summoned Shiva. In front of the Gration. Displaying for all of Garlemald that Echo users can summon Primals, though perhaps they still need to connect the dots, though it can't be that hard, we had a human turn into a Primal and defend us, I know they lost Cid (and Cid-Lite, unless he went back, still annoyed Nero hasn't been around at all...) but they can't be that stupid without him... Would be a good chance for them to pick up the (abandoned?) plot point from 1.0, where Garlemald lumped Echo users with Beast Tribes for seemingly no reason... Given Ysayle went from "She summoned a Primal and must be stopped!", to basically being our ally despite summoning a Primal... I'm hopeful the Scions might eventually look into that, since it's clearly very useful. I can't believe they're still so dense that they can watch Leviathan nom an "immortal" and not figure "Primals can kick the Ascians butts!", Leviathan was a proof of concept that Thordan went onto prove, come on! The only problem with Ysayle and Thordan VII summoning would be their ambition (mass bloodshed and a dictatorship respectively), if we ignore the whole aether parasite thing.

After Alexander I actually am liable to ignore that, come to think of it... You can't slap a Primal there, tell me he'll completely drain the land of aether if left unchecked, then leave him there for months. It's a point where gameplay and story kind of split. As far as lore goes, perhaps we don't summon Primals all that often, perhaps we summon Phoenix to kill of Elidibus or something, then maybe a few other times when Garlemald makes a target of us for it. Functionally that would be no different than what Lou (granted he was going to interrupt the summon, but then he didn't have the Echo) and Ysayle have done up to this point.

It would be similar to Ifrits Trial. As far as lore/story goes, we fight him three times, but I've repeated those trials ad nauseum at this point, because that's a gameplay thing. FC Primal summoning, I imagine, would be much the same as that, or FATEs and Hunts. As far as story goes, those things should logically only happen once, but this is a game and the lore/story is "broken" for the sake of gameplay. Even ignoring that, they're going to have to do something about the whole aether subplot sooner or later, we can't keep having Primals show up, with absolutely no impact on the world, and expect that point to still mean anything at all... They could easily dust it under the rug by explicitly stating the aether is returned when we defeat them, in which case, what would be the problem with summoning Ifrit and dismissing him after?

I think I'll stick to the idea that "Her children" refers to the Primals, too... Something Lahabrea said in Praetorium has always been odd to me. Perhaps it was just that they're fake gods compared to his "true" god, but I got the sense that they didn't want the Primals... Then you've got the reversal of their approach when it comes to Primals... They gave Allag the means to trap Bahamut (and presumably the other Primals). Why? What was different then? They went from presumably building up an empire from the shadows, and having them effectively solve the Primal "problem", to now throwing Primals around at every possible chance... Add to that Bismarck/Ravana (Extreme) "not being the work of the Ascians" (if we're to believe that brat) and something doesn't sit right with me... Elidibus is putting Primals down now too, through the Warriors of Darkness. Could just be Ascians doing their own thing again, seeing as they have seemingly no organizational power, but I'd hope they noted the fact that Lahabrea fell to a Primal and shelving whatever plan involved the Primals... I mean in retrospect it was clearly a terrible plan, it's just powered us up and cost them a few good men...

[Alisa180]

I dread to go digging for obscure interviews Yoshida has made, but I do recall something along the lines of "We're working on it, but it has to make sense with the lore first" some time around 2.5 and the lead up to Heavensward, think with Heavensward he specifically mentioned it needing content as well, since even I'll admit it would be a wasted concept in this game...

After hearing this about this on multiple occasions with no direct reference, I went digging. This took me over an HOUR to find, so I hope you're grateful.

Source

What happened to the concept of roaming Primals for FC's to capture/fight?
This has not gone away. We're still working on it, but we want it to be part of the story as the Main Scenario and not have it be so jarring to see Ifrit just strolling through Thanalan for no reason.

EDIT: I feel like adding that the lore involving primals right now feels like something of a clusterf***. Tiamat calls them 'specters of thy mind's creation, given form at great cost to Hydaelyn.' And that makes sense...Mostly. But that are a few interesting interesting/outlier cases that makes me suspect there's more to it then just that. For instance, there's a good deal of evidence that every time a primal is summoned, its the same 'soul' every time. Ramuh is the most prominent example, as he recognizes the Crystal of Lightning he had given the sylphs of Little Solace the previous time he was summoned (which is what convinces him to 'test' you).

And that's without getting into the Phoenix. Interestingly, Louisoix is referred to as an 'aetherial shade' after Second Coil, but during Turn 12 it became painfully clear that it was still *him* for all intents and purposes. Louisoix even says that he didn't actually die, instead he seems to have been 'transmuted' into the form of the Phoenix. This case stands out because after the failure of summoning the Twelve, he wasn't looking to 'summon' anything or anyone. This is in contrast to Ysayle, who was looking to summon Shiva, and explicitly differentiates between herself and the 'phantom' that she summoned. Louisoix seemed to take form from the concept of salvation itself, combined with the fuckton of aether present thanks to the failed Twelve summoning, resulting in himself becoming the primal rather then summoning one.

The twins were worried about people trying to summon the Phoenix, hence why they've decided to keep quiet about it. But what *would* happen if someone tried to summon him? What would differentiate between a botched resurrection of Louisoix, in the vein of Shiva and Bahamut, and a genuine summoning of the Lord of Rebirth, resulting in the same soul being called from the aetherial realm as seems to be the case with Ramuh and the other primals? Its an important question to ask, and enough of a grey area that I suspect we still haven't gotten the full story on primals.

I think we'll get that story soon though, with the upcoming Warring Triad series, since they seem to have some connection with primal lore.

[Anonymoose]

I think I've mentioned before that I don't think mass death is the purpose behind the Ardors/Rejoinings.

The Rejoining is a pretty ambiguous term. However, the terms used in German and Japanese seem less so.

Löschung (Deletion / Extinction)

次元圧壊 (Dimension Collapse).

In fact, Elidibus is the only Ascian so far who seems more interest in the idea of 'balance', although again, that might just be another means to an end to try and arrest our growing potency and prevent Hydaelyn from regaining Her strength

I still find it weird that Hydaelyn has been progressively weakening for fourteen straight eras... but balance needs restoration because we had one good year. What are we using as a metric for balance, here?

And, to play Devil's Advocate for a moment ... think of who Elidibus has been talking to every time he mentions equilibrium, balance, and the good of this star. I'm going to start digging into it right now, but does anyone remember if it was ever to a fellow Ascian - or only to children of Hydaelyn? Minfilia, Urianger, the Warrior of Light... Elidibus wasn't talking to himself on the moon; he was briefing the Warrior of Darkness on his mission. Do we know that we're watching anything but the grooming of a recent convert?

FC Primal summoning, I imagine, would be much the same as that, or FATEs and Hunts.

After the recent summoner storyline specifically mentioning how much less energy was required to summon a primal into yourself, I imagined that this was their fallback for FC primal summoning. Someone uses an ability and becomes a temporary anthropomorphized primal for a given time and then releases the energy again, no lasting harm done. But we've heard nothing so who knows where they're going with it.

Something Lahabrea said in Praetorium has always been odd to me. <...> I got the sense that they didn't want the Primals... Then you've got the reversal of their approach when it comes to Primals... They gave Allag the means to trap Bahamut (and presumably the other Primals). Why? What was different then?

I've gone over the Ascian scenes over and over and over again, and this is one of the few oddities about Lahabrea's power trip that I think I can explain. It's easy to take his admission to Gaius as, "The only reason we ever concerned ourselves with the primals was to awaken the Heart of Sabik". I don't think, though, that it's meant to be taken that loosely. I think he just meant, "The only reason we let you capture the primals using the Ultima Weapon was to awaken the Heart of Sabik". The legends of the Paragons and their gifts of summoning knowledge go back so far for so long that it seems impossible to not be a big part of their M.O. throughout the ages; far from a secondary goal.

In addition, I don't think it's as simple as "the more primals, the better" but "the more conflict, the better". Seeing as primals drain the land of aether, using them to stoke the flames of conflict is a double benefit. But when one side is winning, that conflict threatens to end. The end of conflict is the singular worst thing for the Ascian agenda. If it takes the loss of a few primals to restore the balance of a raging conflict, so be it. The war cannot end.

Looking at the Allag example, primals were used against the collapsing Allag, Allag didn't collapse because it could capture primals. Indeed, the conflict raged because they could. More and bigger primals were raised, more and bigger weapons combated them. Ultima. Omega. Azys Lla. Dalamud... until, finally, Dalamud triggers the Fourth Calamity.

Looking at a more recent example, the Empire was set make short work of Eorzea until the primals showed up. Ascians ensured that the conflict would be brutal and that all of Eorzea would be caught up in the middle. Except nobody moves ... the Age of Calm sets in. But in that tension, Garlemald makes a move that would and should have triggered a Calamity, but thanks to Louisoix, the job didn't get done.

It's okay, though, because now there's a third faction: Garlemald vs. Primals vs. The Alliance. All against all. But in walks the Warrior of Light, cleaning up the messes. The stalemate is broken; primals are put down, the Empire is put on the defensive. Lahabrea instead moves to awaken Sabik and shatter the "Shield of Light" with the "Hammer of Darkness" ... and Gaius fails. Lahabrea is driven out. The Warrior of Light is too strong.

Elidibus takes interest and backs up Lahabrea. Together, they set the Warrior of Light against more and bigger primals until finally they can move to merge primal and man. They move to the northlands, where Ishgard is about to lose the Dragonsong War. They give the power to Thordan, who will - in theory - start pushing the conflict in the other direction. The Warrior of Light - the Dragons - The Garleans - until the whole world bows to the God King. Surely the Calamity would fall in somewhere along the way - and, if not, they can just give someone the power to combat Thordan.

But now Thordan's dead. What now? Well, the Garleans are still in Azys Lla... and so are the Triad... Good place to start.

Imho, the only thing that breaks the pattern is Elidibus and his talk.

And thus the only thing that matters is whether or not he's lying.

[Kaiser-Ace]

I'm still working off the "Elidibus IS Zodiark" idea until proven otherwise.

Then by extension, his definition of "Ballence" would actually be the same as The Overlords, aka Zodiark's revival and Hydaylen's destruction.

What will finally let me put the pieces together, is when we find out what Elidibus has been whispering in Uriange's ear. And good ol, Alise may be just the catalyst in getting Uriange to spill the fish.

[Nalien]

Gotta love how these things can have multiple meanings;

"Light and darkness were divided, sundered in fourteen", coming off the pre-history stuff, this could be referencing the entire passage of recorded history, all fourteen eras and the conflict of Light/Darkness within.
"To the seas she cast Her children, for fear of the Moon", perhaps referencing the events of 2.55? The Scions were split up, cast to the seas as it were. Two you could argue literally were, if you consider our two favorite exhibitionists time in the Lifestream. Then we have Minfilia running off because of something Hydaelyn told her. Hydaelyn seemed to directly want to send her somewhere else... Then you've got a bunch of our other allies who literally got on a boat and went somewhere else...
"For hate of the Star, to the seas He cast His doom.", perhaps referencing the end of 3.0, in which Zodiark/Elidibus sends "His doom" from the Moon; The Warriors of Darkness.

[Belhi]

If you go to talk to Urianger about the state of the realm he says this:

Urianger: “Knowledge dictates expectation, and expectation colors perception.”
Urianger: On occasion, truth may issue from the mouths of fiends and foes. Our knowledge is dwarfed by our ignorance, and what wisdom we possess hath been distorted by the passage of time.
Urianger: But no matter how distorted our wisdom becometh, may it never be forgot that man is the master of his own destiny.
Urianger: The final verse of the Divine Chronicles foretelleth the destruction of the world. But if it is our fate to perish, so too is it our fate to fight.
Urianger: So let us fight on, as ever we have, in the hopes that the dawn's light will shine again and forevermore.


This is one of the reasons I think Urianger on our side still. What I find interesting is he is basically saying that while we are ignorant truth is prone to being skewed by perception and understanding.

The part I particularly like is where he basically says we are masters of our own fate and if that is wrong then it is our fate to die fighting for a better tomorrow regardless. I think this will color where things go. In the end, regardless of what we face, we will fight for what we think is right and a better tomorrow even if it means fighting our fate itself.

[Fenral]

may it never be forgot that man is the master of his own destiny.

Oh, now we get to be the-- *grumblegrumble* It was forgot already, dude... Nice double-standard.

The Rejoining is a pretty ambiguous term. However, the terms used in German and Japanese seem less so.

Löschung (Deletion / Extinction)

次元圧壊 (Dimension Collapse).

Of course it's less ambiguous in other languages. Thanks, Ferne. The English Lore forum always gets this stuff on Hard mode...
But the Japanese reminds me of FFV's "everything merges with no collateral damage" dimensional collapse more than anything. I doubt it'll be that convenient, though, because House Fortemps still has sons...

[myahele]

If you go to talk to Urianger about the state of the realm he says this:

Urianger: “Knowledge dictates expectation, and expectation colors perception.”
Urianger: On occasion, truth may issue from the mouths of fiends and foes. Our knowledge is dwarfed by our ignorance, and what wisdom we possess hath been distorted by the passage of time.
Urianger: But no matter how distorted our wisdom becometh, may it never be forgot that man is the master of his own destiny.
Urianger: The final verse of the Divine Chronicles foretelleth the destruction of the world. But if it is our fate to perish, so too is it our fate to fight.
Urianger: So let us fight on, as ever we have, in the hopes that the dawn's light will shine again and forevermore.

Interesting because that's exactly what Elidibus says to Minfilia in his 1st appearance in 2.1; it was mostly referring to people's perception/belief of Asciens being formless/shadowy. And that those with "eyes unclouded" can "see them for what they are, rather than this crude approximation"

Most likely, mastering the Echo will allow us to see their true forms.

[Theodric]

I'm a little cynical, but I don't expect Urianger to be anything other than an ally simply because I can't see them killing him off given what we know about NPC's who are tied to quests that aren't part of the MSQ's. Which is a real shame because it did, in my opinion, greatly dampen the impact of 2.0's finale. I feel like the WoL needs to endure more tragedy simply to offset the convenient plot device of being able to defeat pretty much any threat that comes their way. The alternative, of course, is to simply have antagonists win from time to time (and by win, I mean 'win' - not earning a tiny victory and then being destroyed shortly afterwards).

[Fenral]

I suppose the only thing keeping me from doubting Eldibus too much is that, at the moment, trying to prove him wrong would be trying to argue against the already well-established duality of the universe. I suppose they could, but it had better involve a soundly-reasoned argument because I'm not going to buy it if "Eldibus is actually evil and just playing mind-games" becomes the crux of our argument.

Granted, he doesn't have to be entirely right, either, but we've danced around the subject far too long for it to get written off with a simple "just kidding lol."


Oh, one more thought, since I've been playing Knights of the Old Republic again... What if humanity is not composed of Zodiark's essence, but the Warrior of Light is? It'd be a fitting reveal if we've been serving the light all this time with "dark" power, and it would explain why the Ascians built us up only to try and kill us once we grew too strong. The stronger we are when we die, the stronger Zodiark is when he's reborn. Something like that?