What is the be Healer?

[Sunako]

It's a broken class. It's been broken since 2.0 and it's arguably even more broken now because at least there were only two healers to choose from in 2.0.

I actually think it is more balanced than 2.0. Fairy heals are weaker, whm get new insta heals like aoe regen, aoe insta heal, 700 potency instant heal and more mana control. SCH get more aoe utility instead but i do not think that make it much more op. But yah sch is superior compared nocturnal astro. Not really sure should nocturnal get buffed or sch get nerfed.

[DarkmoonVael]

I'm arguing that it's false that SCH is being used for its healing capabilities in endgame content and that people overestimate the job as a whole.

Take the DPS out of the equation, and you can Clear fights without it. Introduce healing requirements that are not catered to SCH's toolkit, and SCH will vanish from parties. SCH doesn't have anything built into the job that makes it better than the other two; it's a fight design problem, and even that is arguable.

Not having a SCH in Thordan was never a problem. A1S week one also didn't require a SCH at all, because HoT's are better than shields in that fight. As usual, people make it seem as if Savage is a living hell that requires constant shielding (which even a SCH won't provide); if that was the case, PLD's Divine Veil would be much more valued than it is. I repeat: it's a DPS issue related to the fact that SCH is the only job built to be an off-healer.

That's what I'm arguing. And the point everyone is making is that no other job is able to do the same as a SCH while DPSing. They never will, because they're not off-healers.

As for the tank issue, it's the exact same problem: SE developed another MT, and WAR is the only job built specifically to be an OT. Take DPS out of the requirement, and you'll see more balance in the tank composition.

Hopefully the next tank/healing introduced will be an off-tank/healer and people will stop with the SCH obsession.

If you are arguing that SCH is brought in to end game content becasue of DPS alone you are catagorically wrong. You are ignoring the fact that SCH has the most diverse toolset for end game raiding, has the most reliable and possibly the best emergency healing capacitiy, has the best mitigation toolset of any of the healing classes, brings with it a very very powerful fairy and out of the three healers SCH is the one with the least mana problems.

You also seem to glaze over and ignore the fact that SCH are more than capable of solo healing raid content. It was the case in coils that SCH tended to be able to solo heal content before WHM were. The SCH healing kit has been nothing but strengthened in 3.0.

Also the argument that if they design fights that are not catered to SCH kit is a joke of an argument. If they do this for any class, you cna take that class out of the equation. You know this can be applied to WHM and AST equally? Design a fight that doesnt suit either of their kits and take them out of the equation.........your bias here is showing far too much.

A1S also didnt require either a WHM or AST in week 1, what it did require was 2 of the 3 in game healers. SCH brought far more safety to the fight than AST did (or ever will do).

As for Thordan, not having a WHM was never a problem, not having a AST was never a problem. Their toolkits were not needed for this fight either. You know why? Thordan isnt exactly taxing on any healer. Disingenuous argument is disingenuous.

They're not hypothetical at all. A1S and Thordan are there to prove it's possible to balance everything without catering to any single healer. There are mechanics in there that make WHM shine, AST shine and few that make SCH shine. Your three lustrates every minute merely match burst you can get by using what's built into WHM's and AST's GCD. Add Tetra and Essential Dignity + Enhanced Benefic's proc + Lightspeed + Synastry and you see that a lot of tools pass Lustrate in healing. That's just overestimating SCH. And I mained it in 2.X, it's the only Zeta I finished and I started Savage with it.

Add in fairy heals to the equation as well.....the picture is very different than the one you are painting about lustrate compensating for the power of AST and WHM GCD.

[CBellz]

I didn't mean no DPS checks, I meant no stress on healing DPS numbers and more stress on healing mechanics.

Hm, so a fight like t13? Coincidentally, SCH was just as vital in that fight during progression. In fact, there are videos of SCHs solohealing that fight while putting out more DPS and needing less ballad than comparable WHMs. :O

"I love how you completely ignore the fact that burning stacks to reach 900 potency reduces DPS output"

Well, I love how you completely forgot that this was in response to you talking strictly about SCH's healing output. Of course I would talk about healing capacity in a vacuum, ignoring DPS requirements. :3

"So, prove me wrong and main/solo heal A3S with SCH with the same degree of work you can do with the other two healers. An overpowered broken job that is the best healer in the game wouldn't have any problems doing that, would it?"

I don't have to because it's already been done :3. Go to fflogs, select A3S and filter search options to search only for scholars with the highest HPS output and you'll see several examples of scholars main healing the fight. In many cases, they allowed their WHM/AST cohealers to achieve top ranking DPS. You made several comparisons to WAR, so I'll add to them. SCH and WAR are built to OT/off heal and no other class is similarly equipped. SCH and WAR, however, are also capable of main tanking/healing, and this is why both are too powerful.

[Sunako]

SCH and WAR, however, are also capable of main tanking/healing, and this is why both are too powerful.

I disagree. There should not be tank/healer that can not main tank/heal. Warrior is op because they boost other tanks dps + ninjas dps with slashing debuff and pld dps is weak. Not because they can survive tank busters like other tanks. If you are so used to use fflogs, you can check what is highest DRK dps and highest WARR dps in savage opressor you compare how far dps is against each other.

[CBellz]

I disagree. There should not be tank/healer that can not main tank/heal. Warrior is op because they boost other tanks dps + ninjas dps with slashing debuff and pld dps is weak. Not because they can survive tank busters like other tanks. If you are so used to use fflogs, you can check what is highest DRK dps and highest WARR dps in savage opressor you compare how far dps is against each other.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. WAR is powerful for a number of reasons, two of which are outlined in our posts. This is going off on a tangent lol

[Sunako]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. WAR is powerful for a number of reasons, two of which are outlined in our posts. This is going off on a tangent lol

What I m saying is. All tanks should be able maintanking all content and all healers should be able mainhealing all content. Maybe there is reason why warrior get buffed after first coil? Some jobs may do it easier, but it should be possible for all.

[416to305]

There is no best, all will work fine in any content, it's really more what you prefer and how new you are. WHM is easiest to learn if you're completely new like I was (had never even played a MMO before). SCH you have your pet to deal with and AST the cards. WHM is easier to learn healing on I find since it's more basic. It's not that it's super easy or anything like that, it's just all your tools are focused on healing, either area healing, healing over time, direct healing, instant healing etc, where AST has buffs for the party and SCH has shields and the pet.

Put it this way, you'll never get to a point where you're like "Damn I can't do this new content because I chose AST, I wish I had done WHM now."

[TatoRazzino]

If you are arguing that SCH is brought in to end game content becasue of DPS alone you are catagorically wrong. You are ignoring the fact that SCH has the most diverse toolset for end game raiding, has the most reliable and possibly the best emergency healing capacitiy, has the best mitigation toolset of any of the healing classes, brings with it a very very powerful fairy and out of the three healers SCH is the one with the least mana problems.

The job has no heals built in GCD that can reach above 150 healing potency, requiring a cooldown to do it, and also is a job tied up to using a very small number of stacks to do anything including burst DPS, burst single target and AoE heal. But it's very reliable with a fairy that pops a heal worth 200 whenever it feels like doing (unless you macro it and lose half of its utility). But that's diversity and reliability, and it's my bias that is showing. I wonder what SCH mains will do when SE stops catering fights to the job; maybe they'll play Botanist.

[CBellz]

What I m saying is. All tanks should be able maintanking all content and all healers should be able mainhealing all content. Maybe there is reason why warrior get buffed after first coil? Some jobs may do it easier, but it should be possible for all.

Then I'd go one step further and suggest that all tanks and healers be able to main tank/heal and off tank/heal effectively. I understand though that this is difficult to do without drastically changing class gameplay and/or homogenizing tanks and healers.

[TatoRazzino]

Hm, so a fight like t13? Coincidentally, SCH was just as vital in that fight during progression. In fact, there are videos of SCHs solohealing that fight while putting out more DPS and needing less ballad than comparable WHMs. :O

"I love how you completely ignore the fact that burning stacks to reach 900 potency reduces DPS output"

Well, I love how you completely forgot that this was in response to you talking strictly about SCH's healing output. Of course I would talk about healing capacity in a vacuum, ignoring DPS requirements. :3

"So, prove me wrong and main/solo heal A3S with SCH with the same degree of work you can do with the other two healers. An overpowered broken job that is the best healer in the game wouldn't have any problems doing that, would it?"

I don't have to because it's already been done :3. Go to fflogs, select A3S and filter search options to search only for scholars with the highest HPS output and you'll see several examples of scholars main healing the fight. In many cases, they allowed their WHM/AST cohealers to achieve top ranking DPS. You made several comparisons to WAR, so I'll add to them. SCH and WAR are built to OT/off heal and no other class is similarly equipped. SCH and WAR, however, are also capable of main tanking/healing, and this is why both are too powerful.

If you're going to quote me, quote the exact sentences, without taking anything out of it. I mentioned DPS along with other things a SCH can't do if they burn their stacks. SCH is not an almighty healer that can do anything all the time, they must choose what they're doing because their toolkit is tied to a master mechanic. A restrictive one. Can you learn to manage this aspect? Of course! You're supposed to, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

FFlogs doesn't show the effort nor shows if it's easier or not to do it as WHM/AST. That was my point. WHM/AST are both capable of off-healing as well, but SCH does it better. SCH is capable of main healing as well, but WHM/AST do it better. The difference: SCH has no other healer to compete with. When they compete for the main healing spot, they usually lose unless you're doing a speed run with focus in DPS or when the extra mitigation provided by Deployment Tactics is needed (i.e. when the fight has been catered to the job, requiring something only that specific job can do just like T13 required a MNK to apply int-down unless you wanted your party to meld a lot of accessories with vitality). Interesting, huh?

And did you seriously say that SCH was vital during T13 progression? Of course it was, there were only two healers. The obsession with the job made you forget that it could be crap, but it would be used anyway because there were no other options that could do anything remotely similar to what it did. It's like saying that a BRD is better than a DRG because it was vital for progression when in 2.X BRD was the only DPS job with that kind of support toolkit.