Pretending to dps in dungeons, is this a new fad?

[NorthernLadMSP]

I find that when I heal, how much damage I do is directly related to how skilled the tank is.

QFT

Last night, ran two of the expert dungeons. The first, the tank was so good I could DPS about 80-90% of the time. The second was so bad I spent the entire time spam healing Cure IIs (not to mention all of my regens) just to keep her alive.

[Riki_Namu]

snip healers are lazy and its hard

Easy way to cause a wipe is to try and be a super healer stance dancing and when you really need that big heal you lagged on hitting cleric and dont heal enough and someone dies. It's now a dps loss.

Most healers dps is a fraction of the tanks/dps.

If its between mechanics and for adds sure. But their job is to heal. Just like a tanks responsibility first and foremost is to be in a tank stance keeping hate, not in a dps stance trying to be a dps.... which causes the healer to not have any time to really dps because they have to heal the tank who thinks they are dps.

PS. Holy takes a shit ton of mana and during chain pulls and big pulls maybe 1 or 2 is okay.

Just depends on the group. If its a FC run sure ill dps in cleric stance because I know my teammates wont go full retard.

[Odett]

In a topic about dealing with lazy damage dealers not doing their job, the answer is not to criticize good tanks and healers for not doing more. All that does is excuse crap damage dealers and alienate even more healers and tanks which is not exactly something we need to be doing.

I definitely agree with you that a lazy DPS should be addressed first and foremost instead of looking at how much damage a healer or tank are doing if a run is going incredibly slow or if a dps check is not being met.

At the same time, however, you said "not criticize a good tank or healer for doing more", and well, a tank or healer that just performs their basic duties doesn't exactly make them "good", you know? Like, I could spam flash on PLD, or go DRK or WAR and face a single target and spam my Power Slash combo (DRK agro combo) or Butcher's Block combo, but there is so much more that I can do. Yeah, this is a trinity-based game, but I think that all of us really need to look outside the box we're placing ourselves into and branch out. Like someone else said in this post, personally, I don't see my job in a run as "just DPS", or "just heal", or "just keep enmity and use my cooldowns"; my job is to help my group as hard as I can. If you don't want to be the very best in content that doesn't require you to do so, that's cool, but we have to stop this whole "this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

There used to be a lot of threads where BRD's would say "I am DPS job so I do not need to support. If I decide to sing, that's a luxury", and the same goes for all the other jobs in this game. SMN's have battle res, you won't refuse to use it just because you're not "healer role". NIN's have a TON of utility now, being able to Shadewalker a tank before a pull, goading someone after they get under 60% TP (which is no excuse now that TP bars are visible), using Smoke Screen on a WAR OT when they go HAM in their starting triple fell cleave burst, or using it on a healer right before a demanding ad phase. Heavensward has given the jobs we play a LOT of new skills that let us become more flexible as players and branch out beyond our stated roles. For example, I can use my DPS stance as WAR when I use Bloodbath and Berserk and get more HP back, giving myself more self-sustain AND increasing my group's DPS. I can keep using my Souleater combo as DRK to get HP back every third combo and help out my healer more and also do more DPS. What I'm trying to get at is that doing the minimum you can is really silly when you look at the number of skills you have now and refuse to incorporate them to help your group.

As for healers, it really depends. I've had horrible, horrible tanks that require me to babysit them because they are literally made out of tracing paper, so yeah, there will be times when you can't DPS , but having a good tank and just standing there not doing anything is just plain lazy and there's no excuse for that.

[Kerii]

QFT

Last night, ran two of the expert dungeons. The first, the tank was so good I could DPS about 80-90% of the time. The second was so bad I spent the entire time spam healing Cure IIs (not to mention all of my regents) just to keep her alive.

I feel your pain. I only play with one tank and she's #2 to the letter.

[Kaurie]

No, please stop. You're continuing a witch hunt against a healer for wanting to heal. They didn't say they'd never do any damage, they simply said that if they wanted to be a damage dealer they'd play that job. That player is probably wondering what the hell they did to deserve the degree of hostility they've experienced in this thread.

You are extremely over-exagerating the situation.

I am simply stating that choosing to not DPS results in playing poorly. It is no different than a Bard who would say "I don't sing songs, I made a DPS". Sure they can do that, but it makes them a bad player.

Witch hunt? That is extremely hyperbolic of the situation.

I've seen very little hostility, and only people challenging what was said. This is a discussion forum. When you make a post on a discussion forum, expect people to challenge you. I expected people to challenge me (like yourself), and am now standing by my statement and backing up my reasoning.

The heart of this issue is not a healer wanting to heal without having, what appears to be (based on the comments of many here), a mandatory damage dealing requirement in addition to the responsibility of healing. The heart of the issue is poor damage output by damage dealers. Why do we need to depend on the healer to increase their damage output in regular dungeons?

You are right, we got off topic. It is insane to hear that people are afk-dpsing. I don't personally expect much out of DPS in a DF, but that is a new low.


Just as a reference, Healers putting out damage is unrelated to whether a DPS is putting out damage. I don't do my job at 50% because someone else is doing it at 100% and I don't do my job at 100% because someone else is doing theirs at 50%. I do my job at 100%, because this is a team game and I am contributing what I can.

If this was a discussion about end-game or even EX content, then yeah, there is a point to be argued, but that's a different discussion.

DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

[Gilraen]

Good luck trying to beat class and job quests without Cleric's Stance and DPSing then.

Thing is, those instances are the reason they do have attack spell. So they can solo private instances without too much trouble. Party content, though, is not the same. There's a tank to take the damage and DDs to deal the damage. But these are other players, with their own life bars, making the healer's role keeping them alive through the damage. Anything more than that is for them to determine if they're able, not you nor me.

[Kosmos992k]

you said "not criticize a good tank or healer for doing more", and well, a tank or healer that just performs their basic duties doesn't exactly make them "good", you know? Like, I could spam flash on PLD, or go DRK or WAR and face a single target and spam my Power Slash combo (DRK agro combo) or Butcher's Block combo, but there is so much more that I can do.

Yes, I know. A good tank uses their cooldowns and skills to minimize the damage taken and maximize their hate and damage. Yet you are implying that I am equating a good tank with a flashing PLD? Come on, please stop using ridiculous hyperbole just to argue.

Yeah, this is a trinity-based game, but I think that all of us really need to look outside the box we're placing ourselves into and branch out. Like someone else said in this post, personally, I don't see my job in a run as "just DPS", or "just heal", or "just keep enmity and use my cooldowns"; my job is to help my group as hard as I can. If you don't want to be the very best in content that doesn't require you to do so, that's cool, but we have to stop this whole "this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

I said this;

this is a trinity based game, healers are meant to be there to heal, tanks are there to tank and damage dealers are there to kill stuff. It's pretty simple really. The only time tanks and healers need to stance dance into their DPS stance to push DPS is in end-game. If the damage dealers in the party are so deplorable that even in a regular dungeon the extra DPS from healers and tanks is *needed* to complete the dungeon, it's not the fault of the healer or tank. If a healer finds time to add some extra DPS to their play, that's great, but it's not expected. If a tank can manage their cool downs and stance to safely boost their damage output, that's nice too, but it's also optional.

Now, why are you reading that and concluding that I think;

"this is my role and I'm gonna do the least that is required of me".

That's not at all what I am saying, at all. I pointed out that both healers and tanks can do additional things beyond their primary role, and that although that is optional, it's great when they do. To me, that's closer to saying that players should do everything they can to support the team, than it is to what you're arguing.

The minimum *ANY* player needs to do in this or any multiplayer game is be an effective and valuable team member.

The minimum does not mean chronically underperforming in your primary role and ignoring your secondary role.

Please lets just not go down this road of a pointless argument about things not said, OK?

[Kosmos992k]

DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

I know that, what I was getting at is that the only time I've seen truly valid points about healers and tanks *needing* to increase their damage output is in Alex Savage discussions.

As I've tried to make clear to Odette as well, I am not saying that healers should not do any damage, I'm saying that we should not be placing that expectation on them.

[Odett]

snip

can't quote you entirely due to post limit.

I'm mostly agreeing with you, so perhaps I should have been clearer, I was not personally addressing you when I said "I will perform my minimum role", but players that think like that.

I also explained how you could just use your Power Slash Combo as DRK and Butcher's Block combo with WAR, not stance dancing on WAR and always staying on Defiance. Those are not hyperboles and many players do that. You get more leeway as a PLD because RoH is the only agro combo that has utility due to the STR debuff, but on DRK and WAR, agro for the sake of agro is completely useless and you are a bad tank if you only use Butcher's Block or Power Slash, because Souleater, Delirium, and Storm's Eye not only increase DPS, but also your mitigation. using Holy on a mass pull as WHM stuns monsters and the tank receives less damage. DPS can be its own form of healing and damage mitigation.

[Eothas]

DPSing as a healer in ex primals and raids is much more difficult and I can understand why they may opt to heal only, at least while they get familiar with things. However, DPSing in a dungeon is incredibly easy, and there is no reason not to.

If by "incredibly easy" you mean the same as a DPS class parsing 1k+ in said dungeons, then I agree.

I know that, what I was getting at is that the only time I've seen truly valid points about healers and tanks *needing* to increase their damage output is in Alex Savage discussions.

Who said that a healer *needs* to DPS? Just curious, I did not see it.