Why does Clemency get interrupted? And why does Sword/Shield Oath reset combo?

[Februs]

You don't have a clue how tank stances or eHP works. Every bit of mitigation you get effectively increases your HP, whether it's 20% reduced damage from Rampart or 25% increased HP from Defiance. A PLD with 16k HP and Shield Oath effectively has 25% more HP: 20k eHP.

I know how Tank Stances and eHp work just fine, thank you.

I never said that Hp mitigated was not included in the eHp of a tank. I merely distinguished between Hp mitigated vs. Total Hp, and stated that the Hp gained by Defiance is included in eHp, giving War’s the advantage.

Comparing stances (using your example), SwO provides 20% increase in eHp, resulting in an additional 3200 Hp on a 16k tank. Even if we’re assuming that the War has the same starting Hp (impossible unless under-geared, but whatever), Defiance (at 25%) provides 4000 eHp. This is not immediate, but is easily fixed by one cure II, especially with a 20% in healing. I’m assuming this discrepancy is why you chose to ignore ShO and compare Rampart, but we weren’t comparing def CD’s. We were comparing stances. If you have to bring in CD’s to compensate for a discrepancy, than that should have given you a hint right there that War’s Stance Dance is beneficial.

WAR doesn't have an easier time getting healed. Defiance only increases healing by 20% while HP is increased by 25%, so WARs actually recover LESS of their eHP from every single heal compared to PLD.

Not sure where you’re getting this from either. It’s true that the higher Hp pool of a War means that the healer has to heal more to the War… but I never said they didn’t. What I said was that a War gets a 20% increase in healing and Pld’s do not. War’s might recover less of their total Hp, but they recover more Hp per heal. A 20% increase is a 20% increase. The maximum Hp does not make a difference to this, so I don’t know why you even bring it up. For every 1000 Hp a Pld gets back, a War gets 1250. That’s a faster healing rate. Saying otherwise is nonsense.

And there's also the fact that abilities like Tetra and Lustrate aren't affected by Defiance at all.

So what? You singled out two moves that have such a high healing potency it makes no difference (which is precisely why they are unaffected) unless we’re factoring in over-healed values. I guess we could calculate how much hate a healer can steal from a tank, but that’s pretty irrelevant to Tank stances.

Where did I say I was complaining about tanking? I like tanking as WAR. I'm pointing out that swapping to Defiance has its own disadvantages, which many PLDs/DRKs don't seem to realise.

Good for you... Where did I say you were complaining? Seems to me like I never once accused you of complaining. If anything, I was acknowledging (albeit sarcastically), that you were pointing out a fairly piss-poor disadvantage of Stance Swapping as War.

The sarcasm only comes in because, these days, ever single War who is defending the pedestal they stand on cites lowering their Dps as some kind of disadvantage to actually being in their Tank stance. Strictly speaking, you’re not wrong. It is a disadvantage, but compared to Drk’s and Pld’s (to whom we were comparing) it’s a pretty limp disadvantage (especially to Pld’s who suffer poor Dps regardless of which stance they are in).

[Judge_Xero]

Sorry Februs that isnt how it works

Pld - 1000 damage hit - 800 damage taken - 800 heal required
War - 1000 damage taken - healed by 960 (800×1.20)

War is 40 HP less than the PLD given equal standings.

[Launched]

confused babbling

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 2520%reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

More HP per heal is completely irrelevant, because WAR is recovering a lower percentage of its eHP on every heal compared to a PLD. A 2k Cure on a 16k PLD is 12.5% of the PLD's HP. A 2k Cure on a 20k WAR gets buffed to 2.4k, which is only 12%. That's a lower heal for the WAR. A 4k Lustrate on that PLD is 25% of its HP, on WAR it doesn't get buffed so it's 4k out of 20k: 20%. That's a pretty significant difference in healing. The number you see on the screen doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is eHP after all your defensive buffs, and it's a fact that WAR receives less healing compared to their eHP than PLD does.

[Kosmos992k]

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.

Reduces damage received by 20% and increases enmity,
while lowering damage dealt by 20%.
Increases accuracy by 5%.
Cannot be used with Sword Oath.
Effect ends upon reuse.

Your math that followed may need adjustment.

[Giantbane]

IComparing stances (using your example), SwO provides 20% increase in eHp, resulting in an additional 3200 Hp on a 16k tank. Even if we’re assuming that the War has the same starting Hp (impossible unless under-geared, but whatever), Defiance (at 25%) provides 4000 eHp. This is not immediate, but is easily fixed by one cure II, especially with a 20% in healing. I’m assuming this discrepancy is why you chose to ignore ShO and compare Rampart, but we weren’t comparing def CD’s. We were comparing stances. If you have to bring in CD’s to compensate for a discrepancy, than that should have given you a hint right there that War’s Stance Dance is beneficial.

No, he was right.

effective health
You're a WAR, you have 16k base HP, turn on Defiance and the healer tops you off. Defiance gives you 25% more HP so you now have 16k x 1.25 = 20k HP. You get hit with a 20k attack, and you just barely die. 20k eHP, right? Ok, I know you've got that (you even said so above).

You're a PLD, you've got 16k HP and ShO on. You get hit by an attack for 20k. That 20k gets reduced by ShO, so 20k x 0.8 = 16k. So you just barely die. It's exactly the same as the warrior above. You die after exactly 20k worth of incoming damage (before it's reduced by ShO). That's what eHP is, how much damage you take before you die. The tricky thing about mitigation when calculating eHP is that it works in reverse. Here's the formula from above:

eHP x mitigation = base HP

but we want to know how to calculate eHP from base HP, so we convert it to:

eHP = base HP / mitigation

or

eHP = base HP x 1/mitigation

so from 16k base HP, to get the eHP you either divide that 16k by the 0.8 (shield oath mitigation) or you multiply it by the inverse of the mitigation. In this case 1/0.8 is 1.25. Which means that 20% mitigation results in a 25% increase in eHP.

effective healing

basically this:

Sorry Februs that isnt how it works

Pld - 1000 damage hit - 800 damage taken - 800 heal required
War - 1000 damage taken - healed by 960 (800×1.20)

War is 40 HP less than the PLD given equal standings.

If you receive, as a PLD with ShO up, a 1000 hp hit, you only actually take 800 hp of damage. And thus, you only need 800 hp of heals to recover completely from that original 1000 hp hit. So while the healer is actually healing you for 800 hp. You are effectively recovering from 1000 hp damage taken.

The math basically ends up the same.

effective healing coefficient = 1.0 / mitigation

So for ShO, again it's 1.0 / 0.8 = 1.25. Thus ShO provides a 25% boost to effective healing.

[Launched]

Um....isn't Shield Oath a 20% reduction in damage, not 25%.
Your math that followed may need adjustment.

20% damage reduction = 25% increased HP.

[Ironos]

No, you don't know how tank stances work. It doesn't matter that I compared Rampart to Defiance, it provides the same amount of mitigation as Shield Oath. Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage, which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which equals the eHP WAR gains from Defiance.

You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

[Launched]

You explicitly say Shield Oath is a 25% reduction in damage which equals a 25% increase in eHP, which is not true. I'm not sure if this was just a typo or what.

Oops. Should be 20% for Shield Oath.

[Judge_Xero]

I know you are comparing Lustrate and Trans as well, but also consider stoneskin and Aldo because they stack with Oath as well as eHP giving PLD 5% stronger shielding. Which is pretty decent if you Aldo off a Defiance War and Deployment Tactics to a ShOath PLD.
It isnt just those healing "abilities" that are better for PLD but most spells as well.

[Alisane]

Everyone else has echoed my sentiments pretty accurately.

I really wish Clemency was oGCD and instant cast. People would actually use it, and it might actually make a difference in some clutch situations. Keep the big mana cost and give it a long-ish cooldown so people couldn't abuse it.