AST's weakness in end game

[Ghishlain]

"Solid facts"? Ok, game on!

-Snip-

There are two thoughts you should consider in your theorycraft:

1. In a ten minute fight, you can use Selene ten times as there is no RNG component to it. With your math that means it'd be a total of 4.5s reduced to the group (I haven't fact checked this, but it looks right at a glance) [EDIT] Actually, you should probably consider normalizing the units from GCD to S or S to GCD and be consistent between it all because 0.45 GCD reduction =/= 0.45s reduction - its not important in the way you've done your math but it will be important once you start adding in things like Greased Lightning, Huton, and Ley Lines, as an FYI
2. While the BLM may arguable get the best increase in Arrow (with resource management in mind), Selene is still providing a boost to the entire raid. It's difficult to quantify your actual damage increase is dependent on the skill of your players, the party composition, and other factors such as spell/skill speed as that reduces the effectiveness of Haste. Your BLM has to be doing more damage with their Arrow buff versus the entire party getting 4.5s reduced (based on point #1). Take into account that if the BLM is 18% of your raid damage, that reduction in time is only 18% of the total raid reduction so its effectively 0.67s reduction for the entire raid GCD (probably worth more considering how BLM works in this scenario).

Last i recall
If you compare AST and whm
They have the same single target potency and AST has a lower mana cost, is a lot faster thanks to diurnal, and have a double mana regen (LA and ewer) that can be both extended...

I'm sorry i fail to see how whm is better ?

WHM has the following that is better:

1. AoE Healing (Divine Seal affects all cures, only the healing potency boost of Synastry affects AST AoE heals)
2. MP Management (Free Medica from Assize + Freecure say hi)
3. Enmity Management

AST has the following that is better:

1. Burst Single Target Heals
2. Party Support Buffs

Both have similar kits when comparing WHM vs Diurnal AST, just a matter of which kit may be more suitable for the fight / playstyle of the player.

@Topic
AST doesn't have any glaringly terrible weaknesses. Noct can use some polish to be more suitable and unique, but otherwise AST is in a good spot. It's what I feel a more technical job versus WHM and SCH as you need to not only be aware of your own toolkit but the nuances of everyone else's kit to maximize the potential of your card usage.

[Alisane]

The only thing that needs to be adjusted on AST is noct sect. Have CO add maybe 2% potency to already applied shields and cards...
Cards are fine. You make the most of whatever you draw.

Agree with this! The real "problem" with AST is not the class. It is that it is more difficult to just jump in and start healing with, as it doesn't have as many tools as WHM or SCH. So you have to be a halfway decent healer to do well with AST.

[Nekotee]

Oh wait wait my post was more aggresive than i tought

I was just opposed to the single target whm advantages
Whm is hands down the best aoe healing (range, raw power, everything)

I don't think whm has a better mp management than AST...
I mean AST has a double mana regen that can be both extended by 5 sec and if lucky with card drawing one EVERY 30 sec (but lowering support bonus)
Assize is an awesome tool i agree (i love that spell... So much spiritbonding...)

Free cure is good... Damn good but you have to cast it XD
I prefer the instant benefic II (but it cost a lot.... Urgh)

...

Divine seal does not affect tetra nor assize nor asilum... If i'm not mistaken...
And synastry give a less stronger bonus buff but a superior healing in the end (string 2 target healing or 160% single target)

...

As for the card...
Balance is the best for DPS...
Arrow could give à stronger boost but require a better ressource management from the DPS
=> arrow enhanced the risk of enochian failure on Blm XD because they will be greedy for more and forget to recharge Enoch with ice 4

[Kabzy]

Agree with this! The real "problem" with AST is not the class. It is that it is more difficult to just jump in and start healing with, as it doesn't have as many tools as WHM or SCH. So you have to be a halfway decent healer to do well with AST.

I don't think they have fewer tools to heal with, all 3 healers share the basic spells needed in this game to heal well.

I agree with your other point though. Having played all 3 healer jobs in Savage (even Noct. AST), I can say the reason that I think people cry about AST is that it is a little more difficult to play. Not because they don't have the tools, but because they have fewer emergency options, meaning you really have to be on point with your healing. Having fewer margins for error doesn't mean a job needs tweaking, it just means the player has to be exceptionally skilled at what they're doing. Pair this with them having stricter MP management, it just boils down to 'you have to be good to do well with a job like AST'. There's nothing wrong with one job being slightly more complex to play than another.

[TatoRazzino]

There are two thoughts you should consider in your theorycraft:[LIST=1][*]In a ten minute fight, you can use Selene ten times as there is no RNG component to it. With your math that means it'd be a total of 4.5s reduced to the group (I haven't fact checked this, but it looks right at a glance) [EDIT] Actually, you should probably consider normalizing the units from GCD to S or S to GCD and be consistent between it all because 0.45 GCD reduction =/= 0.45s reduction - its not important in the way you've done your math but it will be important once you start adding in things like Greased Lightning, Huton, and Ley Lines, as an FYI

I see now that there are some miscalculations in my post. Thank you for pointing this out. It was late and I was sleepy, so I couldn't check the numbers properly. I'll redo the math now and edit the post with credit to you

[TatoRazzino]

They should save "Aetherial Dilation" in case they come up with a "Midwife" healing job. They could cast defensive spells like Lamaze, which reduces damage when the party member stands still (they practice the breathing technique to endure the pain).

Joking aside, I don't know if the name really matters. I have no idea what a "Cleric Stance" is or why it flips healing with damage, but there it is.

I laughed at that! But I believe Cleric Stance comes from a tradition in RPGs. Cleric is a Battle Priest in some games, which is a variation of a healer job or simply a DPS job with church/divine/holy theme. It fits the lore of the Conjurer class, since they're kind of a forest priest guild.

[TatoRazzino]

I don't think they have fewer tools to heal with, all 3 healers share the basic spells needed in this game to heal well.

I agree with your other point though. Having played all 3 healer jobs in Savage (even Noct. AST), I can say the reason that I think people cry about AST is that it is a little more difficult to play. Not because they don't have the tools, but because they have fewer emergency options, meaning you really have to be on point with your healing. Having fewer margins for error doesn't mean a job needs tweaking, it just means the player has to be exceptionally skilled at what they're doing. Pair this with them having stricter MP management, it just boils down to 'you have to be good to do well with a job like AST'. There's nothing wrong with one job being slightly more complex to play than another.

Thank you for saying that! This point has been made in several other threads, but people don't seem to give it any credit. DRK, MCH and AST are harder to play than the previous jobs (DRK has a two resource management system that must be mastered for optimal performance, and MCH has a very complex proc system that needs to me managed very efficiently to maximize DPS output), and the fact that you need to be level 50 to unlock them is not accidental. So, yeah, playing AST requires skill; it's a very proactive healer with a toolkit that seems reactive, so you need to burn a feel cooldowns do reach the same AoE healing output as a WHM. You have to use Nocturnal Shields, Collective Unconscious and Disable to mitigate as much damage as possible, because you won't be able to burst AoE heal like WHMs can with a Cure III. That's not a problem, because you'll be paired with either a WHM or a SCH, who can do that. Pairing AST/WHM is the safest healing option, but it lowers overall DPS; AST/SCH is riskier, but you get high DPS output and utility. WHM/SCH is a balanced choice, and in almost all games I've played balance is usually easier for progression or for beginners. I have absolutely no idea what generated this hate, since this is no different than what we see in other games. Playing AST is a way of gambling. It's supposed to be.

[Kabzy]

I don't think whm has a better mp management than AST...

Can't agree with this at all. With the addition of Assize, MP is so much easier to manage on WHMs now. The only real way to get OOM is if you're not using Shroud/Assize when it's available or if you're overhealing like crazy. I thought MP management was a huge factor in learning WHM back in 2.x, and that's now relatable to AST only. Ewer is a very weak MP regen, and usually not even worth using unless you're in a very dire situation.

[AzureFlare]

I don't think they have fewer tools to heal with, all 3 healers share the basic spells needed in this game to heal well.

I agree with your other point though. Having played all 3 healer jobs in Savage (even Noct. AST), I can say the reason that I think people cry about AST is that it is a little more difficult to play. Not because they don't have the tools, but because they have fewer emergency options, meaning you really have to be on point with your healing. Having fewer margins for error doesn't mean a job needs tweaking, it just means the player has to be exceptionally skilled at what they're doing. Pair this with them having stricter MP management, it just boils down to 'you have to be good to do well with a job like AST'. There's nothing wrong with one job being slightly more complex to play than another.

Things I notice from AST:
Assize/Indomitability vs CU/Lightspeed/CO: none of them give instant healing off the global cooldown. Assize/Indomitability are ridiculously easy tools to use, instant and off global cooldown while the worth is about the same if not lower for their AST counterparts when used by average players. That alone doesn't help. Pretty much parallels what you said on 'emergency heals'.
Luminiferous Aether vs Shroud/Fairy: LA can't be used as an 'oh shit'/afterthought while Shroud can and a SCH should generally never care about hate anyway.
CO/TD: Combos combos combos and all over time too. SCH and WHM had much more straight-forward uses of their buttons when combined and I personally feel they don't need nearly as much thought about what buttons to use together like an AST does (given that TD and CO are worthless alone by default). Combine that with a mindset where you generally use a button according to the situation and I can tell why people feel a little freaked out when they have to press 2-3 cooldowns together at regular intervals.

And of course there's more: higher cooldowns, multi-purpose tools, needing to know other jobs and watching their buffs to really get the most out of your cards. There's a lot they can do to make the job more attractive and 'easier' to play, but straight up buffs to the job as a whole? Please no. Most people don't even know the true worth that some cooldowns bring regardless of skill levels, let's wait and see the 3.2 meta first and at most bring Nocturnal's choices on par with Diurnal's.

Oh, and I repeat: 14k mana, 2 non-buffed / 1 extended Ewer, non-CO extended, on a 12 minute fight(? not sure what length I measured it on) or so while using LA+CO on cooldown is pretty much on par with using Assize and Shroud on cooldown. If you don't get that Ewer, use the other cards instead and don't use damage spells. WHM and AST are dangerously close in mana if you give yourself the opportunity to.

[Risvertasashi]

Can't agree with this at all. With the addition of Assize, MP is so much easier to manage on WHMs now. The only real way to get OOM is if you're not using Shroud/Assize when it's available or if you're overhealing like crazy. I thought MP management was a huge factor in learning WHM back in 2.x, and that's now relatable to AST only. Ewer is a very weak MP regen, and usually not even worth using unless you're in a very dire situation.

WHM has been an interesting journey in Heavensward. Right around level 57, it felt like I was healing with squirt gun in a drought. Even going back to say, Brayflox (normal/story mode in the level 30s), my heals feel more powerful and my MP pool less tiny. This kind of continued with the subsequent journey to i145 gear. It got better at i190, but I still had to pay attention.

Now, decked out in i210...even in a fight like Thordan EX... I just don't have to pay attention to my MP at all (unless I'm raising a lot of people), other than remembering to pop shroud now and then. It's almost like going from the i70 days at the beginning of ARR to AIW/dreadwyrm at the end in a single raid cycle. I suspect it's a combination of passive regen from piety and Assize scaling off MP total.

In any case, having taken both AST and WHM to A3S, it's definitely the former I have to be careful with my MP on.