AST's weakness in end game

[TatoRazzino]

You can save it for Cascades, which reduces AoE damage for the group, which is what we require the most. ASTs can let CU tick for more than 3s on phase 2 when the party is stacked (and WHM usually uses Cure III there). You also have to consider Time Dilation affecting Aspected Benefic ticks, which will reduce the amount of casts necessary to keep it up 100% of the time. Another thing: it's smart to line up Lightspeet with LA to get 2 more GCDs during Lightspeed; you can normalize that in your equation as well. Synastry also allows you to heal two targets at the same time, which means that some of the individual healing you added to the tank numbers is not going to exist; I don't know how to calculate that, though.

A calculation mistake on the WHM part: you considered 600 potency for Medica II (probably from copying Aspected Helios' numbers), but Medica II is 700 potency, which will make WHM more efficient.

[AzureFlare]

He means there is tool for MP regen that scales with piety. Unless I've missed a memo, that's correct isn't it? We just have base mana ticks, whereas WHM has base mana ticks + Assize and SCH has base mana ticks + Aetherflow.

Edit: LA and Ewer are not based on piety. Their potencies only scale with level. Try it yourself, unequip all your gear. LA will restore 707MP per tick.

However, as much as I enjoy your talk about RNG mechanics, not getting 1 extended Ewer or 2 Ewers is the more rare case out of the two (getting vs not getting). My probability math went down the drain, but having 2 draws with one on a 1/6 chance to roll as needed (just Ewer) and one on a 1/2 chance (Ewer, Arrow or Spear) to roll as needed out of 24 draws should be high enough to make it a guarantee or near guarantee.

You mentioned it yourself earlier, let's wait until 3.2 rolls out. Context matters. There are thousands of combinations you can make between healing needed for a fight, when the burst is needed and how much, how many globals you have to do what amount of healing. If there's a fight designed for a WHM to always pull out Divine Seal + Medica 2 and Assize with nothing for AST to compensate, of course WHM will be better. If there's only tank healing and single target damage with bursts in 90s or larger intervals, of course AST will be better.

[NorthernLadMSP]

I'm not talking about passive, natural MP regen. I'm talking about MP regen abilities. The only difference between the other two healers and AST is the speed at which Aetherflow and Assize provide MP. They are instant where Ewer/LA is over time.

[Mibgestalt]

I'm not talking about passive, natural MP regen. I'm talking about MP regen abilities. The only difference between the other two healers and AST is the speed at which Aetherflow and Assize provide MP. They are instant where Ewer/LA is over time.

LA is 707 per tick regardless of MP pool. I don't know Ewer off the top of my head. I get that it's a confusing mechanic, not a lot of details on how Refresh works. And I actually think Refresh should scale with max MP and piety in some way, if it's any consolation.

However, as much as I enjoy your talk about RNG mechanics, not getting 1 extended Ewer or 2 Ewers is the more rare case out of the two (getting vs not getting). My probability math went down the drain, but having 2 draws with one on a 1/6 chance to roll as needed (just Ewer) and one on a 1/2 chance (Ewer, Arrow or Spear) to roll as needed out of 24 draws should be high enough to make it a guarantee or near guarantee.

You mentioned it yourself earlier, let's wait until 3.2 rolls out. Context matters. There are thousands of combinations you can make between healing needed for a fight, when the burst is needed and how much, how many globals you have to do what amount of healing. If there's a fight designed for a WHM to always pull out Divine Seal + Medica 2 and Assize with nothing for AST to compensate, of course WHM will be better. If there's only tank healing and single target damage with bursts in 90s or larger intervals, of course AST will be better.

Yeah I know, I wasn't calling for buffs. My only real point was the scaling on certain abilities, and that AST's MP management system has a bit more complexity than WHM, so I don't think the "on paper" really does it justice. I think AST is a little weaker in practice than on paper, is my point I guess.

[AlphaSonic]

I'm not talking about passive, natural MP regen. I'm talking about MP regen abilities. The only difference between the other two healers and AST is the speed at which Aetherflow and Assize provide MP. They are instant where Ewer/LA is over time.

Shroud/Luminiferous/Ewer/Drain scale with level not with Piety. It doesn't matter if you have 200000000 MP or 1000 MP, all those abilities will restore the same amount of MP no matter how much MP you have.

[TatoRazzino]

We'll have to agree in disagreeing, then. Freecure procs won't be enough to grant better MP management simply because the amoung of MP a WHM saves by getting those procs matches what an AST saves from having spells that cost less MP. For example:

Cure costs 442 at level 60; Cure II costs 884;
Benefic costs 354; Benefic II costs 796;

15% chance to proc Freecure means that one of every 6-7 cures you cast procs. You can get more and you can get less, that's RNG, but you have to be ready to face situations in which you don't get any procs, so it evens out in the chance rate. 7 Cures cost 3094 MP while 7 Benefics cost 2478. A 616 difference. That's what? 3/4 of the cost of a Benefic II? And you save more from the other spells, save more from the fact that Essential Dignity is a very powerful healing spell with a shorter cooldown than Tetragrammaton, saves from Synastry, saves from Lightspeed on intense healing situations, save from the amazing Regen effect from CU, you can also save MP by extending HoTs with Time Dilation. Assize has a long cooldown and is not that reliable as an MP regen tool, specially if you're saving the skill for specific parts of the fight. Also, I line up my LA with cards so I can use CO to buff the party.

[AzureFlare]

Also, I line up my LA with cards so I can use CO to buff the party.

For anyone who cares about comparisons on a job's true potentials: always, always, always do this in any fair comparison. Using CO on just a party buff, even if it is AoE Balance, is a huge waste except for a few very niche cases (filled all your globals and mana-sated on the fight). You'll do more with the mana you get from extending LA and tossing out more Combust(2)/Malefic2/Aero.

[TatoRazzino]

For anyone who cares about comparisons on a job's true potentials: always, always, always do this in any fair comparison. Using CO on just a party buff, even if it is AoE Balance, is a huge waste except for a few very niche cases (filled all your globals and mana-sated on the fight). You'll do more with the mana you get from extending LA and tossing out more Combust(2)/Malefic2/Aero.

I didn't think I had to explicit that strategy, but I now realize that people are not lining up their skills. So, yes, always try to hit everything.

[AzureFlare]

I didn't think I had to explicit that strategy, but I now realize that people are not lining up their skills. So, yes, always try to hit everything.

It definitely isn't as straight forward as most people think it is. I just had an AST on Thordan ex who on one attempt was wondering why he didn't have any mana, yet his base pool was 13k and he used CO without LA. Given, he was under the assumption the MCH in our party knew how to use Promoted Bishop, but he was sitting on 1k while I was on 10-12k. Sure, it isn't as fair of a comparison and a lot of other factors apply (11k mana difference after all), but that's like 3k-4.5k mana he missed on unsyncing his CO alone. He monitored his mana more on the attempt after, still didn't sync LA and CO and was behind by 6-7k mana still.

[NamoNanamo]

Using CO on just a party buff, even if it is AoE Balance, is a huge waste except for a few very niche cases

It's never a waste. NEVER. It could become a problem if you are running low and using every Ewer with Royal road
Of course, it could be better on another things but it will not be a waste.

I just had an AST on Thordan ex who on one attempt was wondering why he didn't have any mana,

And ?
I'm playing Astro and I can do all the fight, without Brd. And using Co on a party buff. And still have no mana problem on the end of the fight.

THe problem isn't using co on a party buff or not, it's how you manage your mana.
I'm not wasting my mana and I know how to optimize co. You need to adapt