Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Kosmos992k]

No one here said parser related abuse never happens, they always admit that it does happen but not in the volume that you make it out to be.

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

[karateorangutang]

I probably didn't make my point particularly well in my last post. I'm very much in favour of a parser, but I think it should be public to the group, otherwise I think it loses a lot of it's effectiveness.
If it's something only you can see, I agree that you can compare online to what others are achieving (though I think many wouldn't bother), but what if your numbers are decent, and you're still not meeting a dps check? You'd still have no idea who in the party was holding everyone back.

I think everyone in the group should be able to see who's putting out what. If your numbers are OK, then why would you care if the group can see them.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that when someone's numbers are low there are those that will harass them. But this isn't BECAUSE of the parser; those people are just jerks and will continue to be jerks whether there is a parser or not.

And a point I've made before which I think is valid but often forgotten; I think a lot of the more vocal people that harass people for low dps, are sometimes not particularly good themselves, and do so to deflect attention from themselves. The truly good people don't really seem to feel the need to berate others. If everyone in the group can see everyone's numbers, it might just shut a few of those people up when they see actually they're not as brilliant as they think they are

Ok, I just misunderstood your post. I would also love to have a transparent parser. Me and my FC buddies love to compete against each other for funsies. I would love a way to be a more active participant in stuff like that. I also agree that it's usually the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

Seeing an overall damage and then a DPS breakdown at end of an instance would be good... but would be sketchy. It really needs to be a real time number or something that can be manually started and stopped. People are evaluating me already... only I can't even evaluate myself. Which is completely ridiculous. It's like working out but never being able to look in the mirror to analyze my progress. I would never know what I need to improve upon to make myself better.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

[zosia]

-snip-
So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves.
-snip-

^claims evidence is anecdotal and discounts it as such
*uses anecdotal evidence to support their argument throughout the entire thread

You support a 2nd class system for ps3/ps4 users for the sake of potential outliers of harassment. There are solutions to harassment in this game and those solutions have been provided to you. Since GM intervention is not good enough for you, you rather keep ps3 and ps4 players disadvantaged to support your safe space of parser free abuse. Ironically, parser abuse already happens. People already tell other players that they are bad, suck, under-perform, elitist, tryhards, etc, etc, ect. That's why we have blacklists, GMs, the ability to close party chat, the choice to play with like minded people, etc, etc, etc. Those are all the solutions we keep providing you, but that's not good enough. I have a feeling nothing will ever be good enough for you.

[Ryel]

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

In nearly every thread this debate happens whenever a study, or evidence lending to the pro parser side of the argument is raised you summarily ignore it and continue posting what you want to continue posting.

The reddit thread that Shana linked was from my earlier post which you seem to have skipped over because it didn't agree with your narrative of the situation.

Your argument is that harassment is a very real fear to a group of players, however i linked multiple sources that discuss that while a few players may feel that way, in game communities that include or allow public parsing features the results show that the overwhelming result if anything is apathy from the majority of the playerbase and that the number of harassment incidents border on the insignificantly small for the benefits the tool provides.

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Had you properly read the reddit thread that was posted (which by your admission you didn't) the player who admits that his findings are anecdotal and based on a admittedly small sample size line up with what many in this and all of the other threads that have discussed this are saying, that harassment concerning performance occurs with or without a parser i encourage you to actually read it this time as the results are quite interesting and very relevant to the topic at hand.

Why it's convenient for you to ignore it is the same as was said before, by glossing over or outright refusing to address any of the sources of various people (the developers of this game included) talking about how parsing isn't a real community fear your counterargument holds little weight if you can't properly dispute evidence contrary to your claims. It's exactly why your statements were likened to a "safe space" argument and other posters have tried to bring this fact to your attention as well.

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

This works both ways, i implore you to actually try to read some of the cited counterarguments to your views rather than repeatedly tossing up the same argument, one that has already been disputed to death already.

I'll happily relink the sourced material for you so that you have the opportunity to give it a proper read this time to better understand where the counterpoints are coming from.


WoW: Accessibility and Apathy

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event

The Real Problem with Parsers

[LaylaTsarra]

^claims evidence is anecdotal and discounts it as such
*uses anecdotal evidence to support their argument throughout the entire thread

You support a 2nd class system for ps3/ps4 users for the sake of potential outlyers of harassment. There are solutions to harassment in this game and those solutions have been provided to you. Since GM intervention is not good enough for you, you rather keep ps3 and ps4 players disadvantaged to support your safe space of parser free abuse.

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.

Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

I'm not arguing for or against parsers. I only replied in this topic because someone else was essentially telling someone who feared possible harassment to "get over" it, which I felt was dismissing the possibility for abuse. Subsequently another poster stated that the fear of harassment had been "brought up and disproven in literally every single" instance where this was discussed. I simply pointed out that you cannot disprove an emotion or feeling that another person has about something. If people fear harassment, it's a legitimate issue, and who are we to dismiss it? I pointed this out and well, you know the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the argument you're making is that it doesn't matter why someone holds a fear, the fact of the matter is that they have a fear and it needs to be considered, no?

Assuming this is your argument, unfortunately, you cannot account for every fear someone has. There needs to be a point where you look at how rational that fear is. If SE were to take action to try and prevent every single little thing that a person takes offense to, we wouldn't be playing an MMO. We'd be playing a single player game. Everyone is different. The essence of human interaction necessitates that some people will not get along, some people will not communicate well, and some people will get offended. To try and eliminate any fears someone has of being offended or hurt means to eliminate all human interaction from the game. This is something that just CANNOT be done for this game due to its nature. It's an MMO. The whole point of it is cooperation and playing with others.

Just because someone has a fear doesn't mean it is founded in sound reasoning. Like I said, everyone is different, but at a certain point, a standard in society is created that bases what the general population considers to be an ok way to go about talking to people. Some people's standards require abolition of critique, or hyper politeness to the point of absurdity. These people cannot be accounted for because some standard needs to be set. What people mean when they say they "disprove" a fear is that the fear is unfounded based on principal of societal standards and proof of fact. People have fears of getting critiqued and/or insulted, and that parsers usage will make this more apparent than it already is. People have stated evidence to support that parser usage will NOT increase harassment any more than normal, and others have pointed out logical flaws in blaming parsers for critiques and insults (I should note, being critiqued should not be considered a bad thing, it's just the nature of critiquing that some people get offended easily by, but again, standards). You say parser supporters are ignoring the issue, but quite frankly, we're just saying it isn't an issue in the first place.

I'd also like to note, that in every post regarding parsers I see, you are far and away the most aggressive (and often insulting) in them, as well as take offense quite easily. It may help to step back and think about what someone's intent is or how they might be trying to say what they say.

[zosia]

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

Lets take this down from the perch of some theoretical discussion of official parser vs non-official parser. Almost every serious end game player I know uses ACT and the only exceptions to that are ps4 players I know. By completely ignoring this issue, PC players have tools at their disposal that ps4 players don't. Also, Yoshida pretty much condoned the use of parsers by instituting "don't ask don't tell: the parser edition."

Tell me, why are the world 1st groups not banned when the dev teamed watched their clear video that depicts add-on use? No one is getting their account actioned over parsers, so lets stop pretending that parsing is some huge transgression against the ToS.

You can talk your way around that point all you like, but its the practical reality of the situation. We have PC users who have access to parsers and move triggers, none of which is detectable nor will you be permabanned for using them (unless you're harassing people). Then, we have ps3/ps4 users that are SoL because of players like you and kosmos that are afraid of potential abuse THAT CAN BE REPORTED TO A GM!!!!!!!!!!!. Here is a person, the OP, who is genuinely affected by this second class system you promote and you guys just turn your nose up and yell "but the potential for harassment."

It's absolutely despicable.

[Colorful]

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.

Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

People scream parsers are illegal all the time, I have to wonder if they even know what illegal means. Parsers have been allowed by Yoshida, he just said don't talk about it ingame, he also stated that the reason they don't officially allow them is due to problems with getting your PC compromised. If someone nugget decided to download a fake addon and then decided to scream at SE, they could say that those aren't allowed and leave it at that. I think a viable solution would be to have a personal parser for all forms of content, with the ability to turn it off and on at will, and a group parser in high end content, such as current extreme primals and Alexander Savage. Similar to PvP, but instead a scoreboard after a wipe/clear. Damage taken, damage done, amount healed, overhealing %, aggro generation, etc.

[Cold_Raven]

I've had a change of thought.

I would still like to see a parser that showed everyone's DPS numbers, but only your own name.

I would ALSO like the parser to count how many AoEs/mechanics each individual stood in or did not engage properly, as well as perhaps a damage taken parser as well.

That would be there to make sure any "Highest number on top!" fools get shown to be who they really are... bad players who force the rest of the group to pick up their slack.

Now that is mah dream

[Odett]

I've had a change of thought.

I would still like to see a parser that showed everyone's DPS numbers, but only your own name.

I would ALSO like the parser to count how many AoEs/mechanics each individual stood in or did not engage properly, as well as perhaps a damage taken parser as well.

That would be there to make sure any "Highest number on top!" fools get shown to be who they really are... bad players who force the rest of the group to pick up their slack.

Now that is mah dream

Parsers already show that, lol. They're not just a DPS tool. They also show things like damage taken, healing done, and overhealing. Misinformed people will spout nonsense like "a parser encourages DPS to ignore aoes to keep their DPS high" and they seem to forget the fact that you do zero DPS when you're on the ground, and that parsers DO also show how much individual damage players are taking. You know things are bad when most arguments made against the anti-parser crowd aren't just pointing out the positive benefits of parsers, but more on dispelling false information.

As a sidenote, you can be top DPS, and still perform mechanics correctly. A lot of you guys speak of these two things as if they're mutually exclusive, and oftentimes, top DPS and a knowledge of the fight come hand in hand. Want an example? If I do Thordan as NIN, I know that for my initial burst rotation, I will have to slightly adjust and use Mutilate after Aeolian Edge instead of Shadow Fang. Making my journey to a Duality Aeolian Edge one skill shorter will let me use it cleanly on Thordan's back with the TA debuff still up, when it would otherwise fall off as I reposition myself for Ascalon's Mercy, as Meteor Rain would also take me off the boss for a second. Same goes with DRG. During your burst rotation, the time where you'd normally weave in a Jump would be right as Meteor Rain happens, leading you to get animation-locked and die, so you will maintain top DPS by abstaining to Jump when you normally would. In order to achieve top DPS, you must know mechanics, and not ignore them, like some people are spouting off.