Absolute frustration at not being able to see my own DPS (ps4)

[Kosmos992k]

No one here said parser related abuse never happens, they always admit that it does happen but not in the volume that you make it out to be.

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

[zosia]

-snip-
So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves.
-snip-

^claims evidence is anecdotal and discounts it as such
*uses anecdotal evidence to support their argument throughout the entire thread

You support a 2nd class system for ps3/ps4 users for the sake of potential outliers of harassment. There are solutions to harassment in this game and those solutions have been provided to you. Since GM intervention is not good enough for you, you rather keep ps3 and ps4 players disadvantaged to support your safe space of parser free abuse. Ironically, parser abuse already happens. People already tell other players that they are bad, suck, under-perform, elitist, tryhards, etc, etc, ect. That's why we have blacklists, GMs, the ability to close party chat, the choice to play with like minded people, etc, etc, etc. Those are all the solutions we keep providing you, but that's not good enough. I have a feeling nothing will ever be good enough for you.

[LaylaTsarra]

^claims evidence is anecdotal and discounts it as such
*uses anecdotal evidence to support their argument throughout the entire thread

You support a 2nd class system for ps3/ps4 users for the sake of potential outlyers of harassment. There are solutions to harassment in this game and those solutions have been provided to you. Since GM intervention is not good enough for you, you rather keep ps3 and ps4 players disadvantaged to support your safe space of parser free abuse.

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.

Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

[zosia]

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

Lets take this down from the perch of some theoretical discussion of official parser vs non-official parser. Almost every serious end game player I know uses ACT and the only exceptions to that are ps4 players I know. By completely ignoring this issue, PC players have tools at their disposal that ps4 players don't. Also, Yoshida pretty much condoned the use of parsers by instituting "don't ask don't tell: the parser edition."

Tell me, why are the world 1st groups not banned when the dev teamed watched their clear video that depicts add-on use? No one is getting their account actioned over parsers, so lets stop pretending that parsing is some huge transgression against the ToS.

You can talk your way around that point all you like, but its the practical reality of the situation. We have PC users who have access to parsers and move triggers, none of which is detectable nor will you be permabanned for using them (unless you're harassing people). Then, we have ps3/ps4 users that are SoL because of players like you and kosmos that are afraid of potential abuse THAT CAN BE REPORTED TO A GM!!!!!!!!!!!. Here is a person, the OP, who is genuinely affected by this second class system you promote and you guys just turn your nose up and yell "but the potential for harassment."

It's absolutely despicable.

[Colorful]

There is no second class system for ps4 and ps3. There is NO OFFICIAL parser for PC so please don't cite that as in anyway evidence that playstation users are disadvantaged. The fact that people use UNOFFICIAL ILLEGAL PARSERS doesn't validate their current use on PC.

Relative to the OP, I don't think most object to a private parser, it's the group parsers that many have issues with.

People scream parsers are illegal all the time, I have to wonder if they even know what illegal means. Parsers have been allowed by Yoshida, he just said don't talk about it ingame, he also stated that the reason they don't officially allow them is due to problems with getting your PC compromised. If someone nugget decided to download a fake addon and then decided to scream at SE, they could say that those aren't allowed and leave it at that. I think a viable solution would be to have a personal parser for all forms of content, with the ability to turn it off and on at will, and a group parser in high end content, such as current extreme primals and Alexander Savage. Similar to PvP, but instead a scoreboard after a wipe/clear. Damage taken, damage done, amount healed, overhealing %, aggro generation, etc.

[Cold_Raven]

I've had a change of thought.

I would still like to see a parser that showed everyone's DPS numbers, but only your own name.

I would ALSO like the parser to count how many AoEs/mechanics each individual stood in or did not engage properly, as well as perhaps a damage taken parser as well.

That would be there to make sure any "Highest number on top!" fools get shown to be who they really are... bad players who force the rest of the group to pick up their slack.

Now that is mah dream

[Odett]

I've had a change of thought.

I would still like to see a parser that showed everyone's DPS numbers, but only your own name.

I would ALSO like the parser to count how many AoEs/mechanics each individual stood in or did not engage properly, as well as perhaps a damage taken parser as well.

That would be there to make sure any "Highest number on top!" fools get shown to be who they really are... bad players who force the rest of the group to pick up their slack.

Now that is mah dream

Parsers already show that, lol. They're not just a DPS tool. They also show things like damage taken, healing done, and overhealing. Misinformed people will spout nonsense like "a parser encourages DPS to ignore aoes to keep their DPS high" and they seem to forget the fact that you do zero DPS when you're on the ground, and that parsers DO also show how much individual damage players are taking. You know things are bad when most arguments made against the anti-parser crowd aren't just pointing out the positive benefits of parsers, but more on dispelling false information.

As a sidenote, you can be top DPS, and still perform mechanics correctly. A lot of you guys speak of these two things as if they're mutually exclusive, and oftentimes, top DPS and a knowledge of the fight come hand in hand. Want an example? If I do Thordan as NIN, I know that for my initial burst rotation, I will have to slightly adjust and use Mutilate after Aeolian Edge instead of Shadow Fang. Making my journey to a Duality Aeolian Edge one skill shorter will let me use it cleanly on Thordan's back with the TA debuff still up, when it would otherwise fall off as I reposition myself for Ascalon's Mercy, as Meteor Rain would also take me off the boss for a second. Same goes with DRG. During your burst rotation, the time where you'd normally weave in a Jump would be right as Meteor Rain happens, leading you to get animation-locked and die, so you will maintain top DPS by abstaining to Jump when you normally would. In order to achieve top DPS, you must know mechanics, and not ignore them, like some people are spouting off.

[Ryel]

Excuse me, don't put words into my mouth. Read what I posted. Tell me where I have quantified the volume of abuse that I think would happen. You can't, because I didn't. As for the linked Reddit thread, no, I didn't read it. If you have a point to make, make it, don't blithely link off to Reddit. You say I conveniently ignore something in every parser discussion, pray tell what is it that I am ignoring?

In nearly every thread this debate happens whenever a study, or evidence lending to the pro parser side of the argument is raised you summarily ignore it and continue posting what you want to continue posting.

The reddit thread that Shana linked was from my earlier post which you seem to have skipped over because it didn't agree with your narrative of the situation.

Your argument is that harassment is a very real fear to a group of players, however i linked multiple sources that discuss that while a few players may feel that way, in game communities that include or allow public parsing features the results show that the overwhelming result if anything is apathy from the majority of the playerbase and that the number of harassment incidents border on the insignificantly small for the benefits the tool provides.

BTW, here's a little gem from the OP in your linked Reddit thread - "This is my own experience". So what is it that you think this anecdotal discussion somehow proves/disproves. Also, why do you think I am somehow conveniently (not sure why it's convenient, perhaps you can explain) ignoring it - whatever 'it' is?

Had you properly read the reddit thread that was posted (which by your admission you didn't) the player who admits that his findings are anecdotal and based on a admittedly small sample size line up with what many in this and all of the other threads that have discussed this are saying, that harassment concerning performance occurs with or without a parser i encourage you to actually read it this time as the results are quite interesting and very relevant to the topic at hand.

Why it's convenient for you to ignore it is the same as was said before, by glossing over or outright refusing to address any of the sources of various people (the developers of this game included) talking about how parsing isn't a real community fear your counterargument holds little weight if you can't properly dispute evidence contrary to your claims. It's exactly why your statements were likened to a "safe space" argument and other posters have tried to bring this fact to your attention as well.

Perhaps you ought to just go and actually read my posts above and see what it is that I am saying instead of responding to what you imagine I am saying?

This works both ways, i implore you to actually try to read some of the cited counterarguments to your views rather than repeatedly tossing up the same argument, one that has already been disputed to death already.

I'll happily relink the sourced material for you so that you have the opportunity to give it a proper read this time to better understand where the counterpoints are coming from.


WoW: Accessibility and Apathy

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event

The Real Problem with Parsers

[Kosmos992k]

In nearly every thread this debate happens whenever a study, or evidence lending to the pro parser side of the argument is raised you summarily ignore it and continue posting what you want to continue posting.

I could easily say the same thing to you and several other posters. Since you think I've ignored something, let's dig in shall we?

The reddit thread that Shana linked was from my earlier post which you seem to have skipped over because it didn't agree with your narrative of the situation.

I haven't skipped over it, player fear of harassment is not central to the discussion in that topic.

Your argument is that harassment is a very real fear to a group of players, however i linked multiple sources that discuss that while a few players may feel that way,

So it is in fact a real fear to some.

in game communities that include or allow public parsing features the results show that the overwhelming result if anything is apathy from the majority of the playerbase and that the number of harassment incidents border on the insignificantly small for the benefits the tool provides.

You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.

Had you properly read the reddit thread that was posted (which by your admission you didn't) the player who admits that his findings are anecdotal and based on a admittedly small sample size line up with what many in this and all of the other threads that have discussed this are saying, that harassment concerning performance occurs with or without a parser i encourage you to actually read it this time as the results are quite interesting and very relevant to the topic at hand.

Yes, I know that. That's why I want to know what it is that people think I'm ignoring. I have never said that harassment concerning performance is not already a problem, on the contrary, I've posted about that very thing before. I'm well aware that there is a small sub-set of players who harass others who do not perform to *their* standard.

Now, before I continue, I want to make this quite clear, everything I am about to write depends on how any official in-game parser is implemented, and how it functions.

The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.

Just in case you're counting, that's two kinds of parser implementation I don't object to, and don't think would cause players to fear harassment more than they already do from that small group of jerks who can't help but yell at others about their performance.

Moving on from that...

Why it's convenient for you to ignore it is the same as was said before, by glossing over or outright refusing to address any of the sources of various people (the developers of this game included) talking about how parsing isn't a real community fear your counterargument holds little weight if you can't properly dispute evidence contrary to your claims.

Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.

Looking at your links;
The Real Problem with Parsers
21 pages of the usual to and fro about parsers in a topic started by someone who doesn't want parsers. It rehashes all the arguments, again and again. What is it that you think this shows me other than numerous pro parser people congratulating each other on 'getting it' and replying to others telling them that they do not 'get it'? No offense, but I'm not reading 21 pages of recycled arguments, I have other things to do.

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event
Yoshida says they officially can't allow the use of (3rd party*) parsers, and talks of the PC gaming culture where parsers and other tools are common. Addressing the use of such tools even though they are technically not allowed, he says "we're all adults, take responsibility for what you do'. So, how does this relate to whether or not there is a fear of harassment felt by some players? His comments do not address that at all.

* - edit, I missed saying 3rd party tools.

WoW: Accessibility and Apathy
I think you're intending this to be a demonstration that there is nothing to fear because everyone has parsers in WoW and look how no one says a thing when that guy trolls the raid for a carry. Apathy is real, of course, because in non-end game content, it pretty much takes more time and effort to whine and complain about the player lagging behind and then kick them, than it does to just plow ahead and clear the dungeon. This comes up pretty regularly in parser related discussions with many people vehemently objecting to (quote understandably) what they call 'forced carries'. Apparently those players are not as apathetic as the players in WoW in the linked video. I don't think that this video really does anything to demonstrate that there are not players who fear harassment.

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?
Another long topic that rehashes the exact same discussions we have had here. What is it that you are specifically trying to get from this link? I did find one interesting post that I will quote for you here;

But you can already determine if you're doing good dps or not. You can parse all you like and Square won't ban you just for parsing. Nobody has ever gotten banned just for parsing and nothing else.

The OP's argument though isn't about parsing itself, it's about what happens when people take the numbers from their parser and start putting them into chat in an attempt to force other players to improve the way they play. Square doesn't want you doing that specifically. They seem to be of the opinion that if you think someone's not good enough to play with you then instead of trying to force them to be, you should just not play with them.

That's what people clamoring for legal parsing are really all about; they make like they just want to be able to play the game properly, thing is, they already CAN play the game properly, what they actually want is to be able to legally arm-twist other people into playing on same level as they do.

That's why Square will never listen to these people. They already turn a blind eye to parsing itself. They just will never give you a thumbs up to use it against other people. And you don't need to either. Find people who play the way you want and play with them.

I don't see why people can't deal with this...

So, what did I gain from all that reading of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed here as well? Nothing. Nothing new was said, it's *exactly* the same points made here over and over and over again. You're saying I ignored some point from this stuff, in all honestly, no I haven't. You simply disagree with my position.

This works both ways, i implore you to actually try to read some of the cited counterarguments to your views rather than repeatedly tossing up the same argument, one that has already been disputed to death already.

All the points in this discussion have been argued to death before. Repeatedly. You know, I haven't ignored any of the points people make in this topic or others. I don't cite them in my posts much, because I take them as read. If that means you think I ignored some argument or other that you think counters or disproves my opinion, that's your opinion, although you'd be wrong to think that.

The single, specific, point I posted (my original post) in this topic about was the fear of harassment that some players feel. I didn't make any statement about other forms of harassment, I didn't say it was felt by a particular percentage of the players, I didn't say whether it was completely rational or not. I simply said that the fear is a real fear felt by some players. You can't deny that.

Saying that this fear has been 'disproven', is objectively a false claim. That's even demonstrated by posts in this topic alone, where players have posted their experience of being harassed. Not only that, but it's strongly argued that there is already harassment of players over their performance (which I agree is true), so there is in fact a reason for people to fear harassment. That's it. If you can't understand and accept that, it's not my problem. If you don't agree that introducing a parser *could* enhance that fear, that's your opinion, I don't share it.

[zosia]

I could easily say the same thing to you and several other posters. Since you think I've ignored something, let's dig in shall we?

We've all addressed your concerns and anecdotal evidence with valid solutions, you just don't like them.

I haven't skipped over it, player fear of harassment is not central to the discussion in that topic.

It still had relevent information, you just want to discount it to further your own argument

So it is in fact a real fear to some.

anecdotal evidence

You've linked multiple sources. OK, there are multiple posts in this topic that discuss the opposite experience, the most exhaustively covered example being DCUO. You can link things, so can I or others. It's no surprise that there are many different experiences, points of view or school's of thought on the matter, it's not a cut and dried topic.

anecdotal evidence

Yes, I know that. That's why I want to know what it is that people think I'm ignoring. I have never said that harassment concerning performance is not already a problem, on the contrary, I've posted about that very thing before. I'm well aware that there is a small sub-set of players who harass others who do not perform to *their* standard.

Now, before I continue, I want to make this quite clear, everything I am about to write depends on how any official in-game parser is implemented, and how it functions.

The point I have made, and will continue to make, is that an official parser in the game hands those players a 'stick' with which to beat other players. You can say that they would harass others anyway, and I will agree, they probably would. But by condoning parser use with an official parser, the in-game climate changes to one where it's considered OK to criticize other players performance. Now, if, as I discussed with Kazumac, there was a personal parser, it wouldn't contribute to player harassment, the same jerks would continue to be jerks and the world would turn. If there were an opt-in group parser for pre-made groups, it would reduce any scope for abuse since players voluntarily opt-in to being parsed in a group situation. Once again, jerks will be jerks and the world will turn.

Reportable to GMs

People already critique each other's game play without parsers

So, by that point, non-jerks would suddenly be compelled to become jerks because group parsers would compel them to be jerks?

Yes, jerks will be jerks, with or without group parsers. So, whats the point of fighting against parsers when harassment is a reportabel offense?

Just in case you're counting, that's two kinds of parser implementation I don't object to, and don't think would cause players to fear harassment more than they already do from that small group of jerks who can't help but yell at others about their performance.

This already happens, without parsers, and players get temp bans for griefing horrible players. Why would this change with an official parser of ANY kind?

Now see, that's a different argument. In the previous paragraph you talked about the threads you linked to and that the thing you claim I ignore is that people already harass others over their performance. Whether or not developers believe that there is a legitimate fear in the community is a very subjective thing, because it depends very much on the game, community and developer, along with the type of game and how parsing is implemented. Developers frequently mis-read the community and what the wants or needs of the community are. This forum itself provides daily documentation of many, many times when developers have thought the community wanted something and the community has proven the developer to be wrong.

Looking at your links;

Hold on, let me help you understand why people keep saying that to you.

The Real Problem with Parsers
21 pages of the usual to and fro about parsers in a topic started by someone who doesn't want parsers. It rehashes all the arguments, again and again. What is it that you think this shows me other than numerous pro parser people congratulating each other on 'getting it' and replying to others telling them that they do not 'get it'? No offense, but I'm not reading 21 pages of recycled arguments, I have other things to do.

There ya go

Lindsay talks w/Naoki Yoshida - Final Fantasy XIV PS4 Beta Event
Yoshida says they officially can't allow the use of parsers, and talks of the PC gaming culture where parsers and other tools are common. Addressing the use of such tools even though they are technically not allowed, he says "we're all adults, take responsibility for what you do'. So, how does this relate to whether or not there is a fear of harassment felt by some players? His comments do not address that at all.

It shows you that SE takes parser harassment seriously and that they don't consider parsing a bad thing. That statemnet ties into this entire debate in a multitude of ways.

WoW: Accessibility and Apathy
I think you're intending this to be a demonstration that there is nothing to fear because everyone has parsers in WoW and look how no one says a thing when that guy trolls the raid for a carry. Apathy is real, of course, because in non-end game content, it pretty much takes more time and effort to whine and complain about the player lagging behind and then kick them, than it does to just plow ahead and clear the dungeon. This comes up pretty regularly in parser related discussions with many people vehemently objecting to (quote understandably) what they call 'forced carries'. Apparently those players are not as apathetic as the players in WoW in the linked video. I don't think that this video really does anything to demonstrate that there are not players who fear harassment.

You keep moving the goal post. People show you some general trends and you go "Nah, there is probably at least one person in the world afraid of harassment." Yeah, of course, I can find at least one player in this game that will fit any convoluted argument. I am sure you can find a player in this game who are afraid of harassment. Until you find us a large population of people who will suffer at the hands of some larger population of jerks that are just waiting to bash people with an official parser, your statements only serve up more anecdotes that paint you as nothing more than a parser contrarian.

FFXIV Parsing: Is banning it actually preventing arrogance, or fueling it?
Another long topic that rehashes the exact same discussions we have had here. What is it that you are specifically trying to get from this link? I did find one interesting post that I will quote for you here;

The point you highlighted just shows your despicable bias in this situation. The OP is a real and tangible effect of not having an official parser, yet the only thing you quote from any of those links is a post that paints in broad strokes ("this is why everyone wants a parser") and then insinuates that it's for a negative reason (to force other people to play some way). Yeah, keep touting your hypothetical acedotes while people like the OP suffer because of some poor hypothetical victim that cannot manage to use the report button.

So, what did I gain from all that reading of the same arguments that have been hashed and rehashed here as well? Nothing. Nothing new was said, it's *exactly* the same points made here over and over and over again. You're saying I ignored some point from this stuff, in all honestly, no I haven't. You simply disagree with my position.

Nope, you ignored stuff by your own admission, see above.

All the points in this discussion have been argued to death before. Repeatedly. You know, I haven't ignored any of the points people make in this topic or others. I don't cite them in my posts much, because I take them as read. If that means you think I ignored some argument or other that you think counters or disproves my opinion, that's your opinion, although you'd be wrong to think that.

Yes, you have.

The single, specific, point I posted (my original post) in this topic about was the fear of harassment that some players feel. I didn't make any statement about other forms of harassment, I didn't say it was felt by a particular percentage of the players, I didn't say whether it was completely rational or not. I simply said that the fear is a real fear felt by some players. You can't deny that.

By your own refutations of points in this thread: its! wait for it! wait!

Just some anecdote to prop up your argument.

Saying that this fear has been 'disproven', is objectively a false claim. That's even demonstrated by posts in this topic alone, where players have posted their experience of being harassed. Not only that, but it's strongly argued that there is already harassment of players over their performance (which I agree is true), so there is in fact a reason for people to fear harassment. That's it. If you can't understand and accept that, it's not my problem. If you don't agree that introducing a parser *could* enhance that fear, that's your opinion, I don't share it.

That's what GMs are for

Also, anecdotal evidence