3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

[CyrilLucifer]

He also seems (flatly) annoyed that the duo was actually killed and that he has to clean up their mess.

Unrelated, but I found Elidibus hilarious in the epilogue. I mean, it's common for antagonistic characters in Japanese games to be apathetic about their colleagues dying, but Elidibus actually bothered giving a rather lame "boo hoo," before complaining about how much blood there was on the floor from their bodies.

If nothing else, he is pragmatic enough to see that the loss of an ally, no matter how rogue, is detrimental to his cause.

. . .If Elidibus wanted them both killed, he would have supplied us with two; though we don't yet know the rarity of the material, I'm quite confident he could easily obtain it. Why didn't he?

More seriously:

I actually believe Elidibus only wanted Lahabrea out of the picture. Just in the short time we saw Lahabrea in-game he has acted inappropriately, in Elidibus' eyes, at least twice, disregarding anything he might have done in the past because we don't know anything about it. Elidibus gave him chances, hoping he would calm, but Lahabrea didn't; he proved he wasn't willing to learn from his mistakes.

As for why only one auracite - because, as I mentioned above, Elidibus is nothing if not pragmatic. Why lose two when you can lose one? Igeyorhm could possibly have been reigned in. While she was basically given no personality, she didn't seem as rash as Nabriales or Lahabrea. Quite the opposite, actually, she was more level-headed judging by her pre and mid-battle dialogue.

That, paired with you having unfinished business with Lahabrea, makes it an understandable gamble that, with only one auracite you'd choose the Ascian you know rather than the Ascian you don't. The only reason we went for Igeyorhm first was because she exposed her Dark Crystal first in attempt to escape - which, by the way, I think was a rather foolish decision on our character's part, but hey, it's not like we can do anything about it.

[Morningstar1337]

That, paired with you having unfinished business with Lahabrea, makes it an understandable gamble that, with only one auracite you'd choose the Ascian you know rather than the Ascian you don't. The only reason we went for Igeyorhm first was because she exposed her Dark Crystal first in attempt to escape - which, by the way, I think was a rather foolish decision on our character's part, but hey, it's not like we can do anything about it.

I thought we offed Igeyorhm first was out of a similar sense of pragmatism, we know the extent of Lahabreha's strength and how arrogant he is, by contrast Igeyorum is an enigma, and like you said could be reigned in unlike the former. If we went after Lahabrea then he would be dead, instead of gallivanting about on his own projects and generally setting back Elidibus' plans, while more Ascians would come at us and they may not be as easy to stop as Lahabrea

on other words; instead of killing the one we know we could stop, we took a risk and offed a potential threat...and then Thordan comes around and kills Lahabrea anyway, making this a moot point.

[Cilia]

I actually believe Elidibus only wanted Lahabrea out of the picture. Just in the short time we saw Lahabrea in-game he has acted inappropriately, in Elidibus' eyes, at least twice, disregarding anything he might have done in the past because we don't know anything about it. Elidibus gave him chances, hoping he would calm, but Lahabrea didn't; he proved he wasn't willing to learn from his mistakes.

As for why only one auracite - because... Elidibus is nothing if not pragmatic. Why lose two when you can lose one? Igeyorhm could possibly have been reigned in. While she was basically given no personality, she didn't seem as rash as Nabriales or Lahabrea. Quite the opposite, actually, she was more level-headed judging by her pre and mid-battle dialogue.

That, paired with you having unfinished business with Lahabrea, makes it an understandable gamble that, with only one auracite you'd choose the Ascian you know rather than the Ascian you don't. The only reason we went for Igeyorhm first was because she exposed her Dark Crystal first in attempt to escape - which, by the way, I think was a rather foolish decision on our character's part, but hey, it's not like we can do anything about it.

Being the devil we know, leaving Lahabrea and going for the deathblow on Igeyorhm instead was the pragmatic choice.

Pragmatism and gambles do not mix.

[Tenkuu]

While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

Gaius made a lot of sense and made some really good points about the Twelve and the Primals, to the point where really I was wondering why we were fighting him by the end of 2.0 and seriously considered that joining him might be the better option. Except of course for the fact that he's a murderous megalomaniac... So, honorable? Don't think that's possible for a guy who believes that ends justify the means. If he decided to get out of his own head and actually work with us though, there's no doubt that he'd be a strong ally if only as a physical fighter, but he would still be worse than useless against a Primal. Unless not being able to use magic also means that Garleans can't be tempered, which is actually a thought that just came to me.

Aside from being out of commission... who knows. It might be an impractical solution, or it could be because Lolorito and Teledji were already going at it. Where they learned about it from, who knows? Maybe it was even... an Ascian! Dun dun dun!

Didn't they already mention where they found out about it from? Ie, they were digging up Carteneau and there it was.

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Definitely not exclusively, but among other things, yes, Waking Sands was particularly forefront. It's not like the Garleans don't have a bloody history of subjugating other nations though. You talk of Livia's loose morals as if Gaius doesn't share them too, but keep in mind that despite the fact that he was saner than she was, he was just as morally ambiguous with a mentality of the ends justifying the means. He wouldn't exactly have complained about a whole contingent of his foes being wiped out in one go. At best it would be a "oh well" moment for him. Btw, it seemed as though her orders were to capture the Warrior of Light but she took the liberty of capturing whatever Archons, and Minfilia, that were there.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

His beliefs about the Primals and the Twelve definitely made me respect him, at the least, not to mention what he said about the nations of Eorzea being weak; his attitude of ends justifying the means and endangering both innocents *and* our friends though, not so much. Conquest was definitely more on his mind than salvation, put simply. I can still admit that outside of the context of being a Garlean megalomaniac though, Gaius would definitely be a good fighter.

[Tenkuu]

About the raid on the Sands... I, too, think it's Livias fault it escalated back then. They where after us (or claimed they where, anyway...) and the Scions. From what we know about Gaius, especially from his conquest of Ala Mhigo, he actually tries to limit casualties, in contrast to most of his countrymen. So, I think had he actually been there, he would have accepted Minfilia's surrender and leave the rest alone. Allas, we got Livia, and everything ended in a huge blood bath. Glad her sister is her complete opposite...

Main problem I have with this is it assumes that Gaius is completely innocent in all this massacre that occurred at the Waking Sands, except for one rather important fact: he obviously knew the kind of person Livia was after not only raising her but working with her for several years, if not at least two decades. He should have known that she'd behave this way and sent someone else to get the job done if his only aim was the capture of the Warrior of Light (and possibly that of the Archons as well). The fact that he sent her seems to rather make clear to me that either he had little control over one of his own, which, seriously? Or the other possibility would be that he expected that casualties might occur, viewed them as an inevitable part of war against strong foes, and didn't mind them all that much. Gaius' only correct assumption that I can tell lies in the fact that the Warrior of Light would have surrendered if they held weapons on our allies and threatened to kill them if we didn't come quietly.

I actually talked about this with a friend a while ago and we both agreed that Gaius is what a villain should be - someone with both good and bad sides instead of only bad, who people can somewhat relate to and actually say 'hell, under different circumstances, I could be friends with this guy...'

Gaius is pretty much a typical Garlean imo. Has the typical Garlean mindset of conquest and that all Primals need to die. This makes it so that as a whole, the Garleans are not such terrible villains, and even in HW, they're treated as little more than an annoyance to us while the Archbishop is this huge thorn in our side who happens to be working with Ascians. The Archbishop was a recipe for disaster whereas with the Garleans it was more a matter of beating them into either submission or retreat.

[Tenkuu]

Thoughtful questions apparently get thorough answers. Apologies for the novella.

Are you kidding? I'm flattered that you think my questions thoughtful. *bows* Nice to meet you btw.

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance. Did you notice how every event from 2.2 to 2.55 looked like it was building to the Knights of the Round?

• [2.2] Elidibus grants the Sahagin elder the Echo.
  [...]
• [2.5] Unseen, Lahabrea and Elidibus grant Thordan and the Heavens' Ward the power to summon the deiform founder King and his Knights Twelve into themselves (a culmination of past experiments). Nidhogg senses their power and realizes that he might be defeated if he keeps holding back and waging a war only on their spirits. He rallies the whole of the Horde and moves on Ishgard before Thordan can move on him.

Are we actually certain that the Echo was given to the Sahagin elder rather than awoken in him? If so, that would make Elidibus pretty much equal to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. And I have the same question regarding the knights and Thordan: doesn't the Echo have to be granted by either Hydaelyn or Zodiark? About Nidhogg, interesting that you put it that way, but is this your speculation or is it confirmed anywhere? I am not remembering any cutscenes being particularly specific about Nidhogg's intentions being anything other than waging a war of attrition.

More or less. Imagine you're Garlean leadership for a moment. You've heard tales of this sacred place and know there are tons of legends about it. You find that it is a conflux for at least the whole realm (if not the whole world)'s aetherial rivers.

If your empire's mission statement is essentially Primals Are Bad, M'kay, you definitely want that place locked down when your armies move in. The last thing you need is the beast tribes tapping into that massive confluence to power the summoning of their gods. No one can be allowed to learn how to harness that power.

That's not to say that the Garleans didn't realize something bigger was up with Silvertear Lake, though... especially while pulling away from the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Fun Fact: Even after the invasion into the heart of Eorzea failed and the XIVth Legion retreated to Ala Mhigo, Gaius still held Mor Dhona (very loosely). Eorzea secured small camps around the aetherytes, but barely anyone dared venture outside of them because Gaius maintained supply camps and a troop presence. That's how Castrum Novum was raised there so fast with so few noticing.

So, in essence, they had no idea what they were actually getting into and that the place not only couldn't be held but was also already under protection by Midgarsormr. That's the long and short of what you're saying if I'm not misunderstanding?

The whole claim hinges on the parentheses, lol.

From Garlemald's point of view, following their principles, Gaius slew aspirant usurpers of the crown, held stability by ending rebellion and rooting out insurrection, refused to discriminate based on anything but merit, and gave chance after chance for his targets of conquest to lay down their arms and embrace Imperial rule. (Before the final invasion, he even air-dropped linkpearls on Eorzea promising the full resources of the Empire towards security and unity should they accept Imperial rule and take up arms against the tribes.)

From our point of view, he mercilessly annihilated anything and everything that didn't fit his worldview and offered a "choice" of death or enslavement in a misguided campaign to rid the world of symptoms of its illness while only exacerbating it.

In the gray - if you look closely, he made efforts to "save" everyone who might end up coming around to join him - to "bring glory to the Empire and stability to the world". He only gave up on people who embraced the primals and insurrection and strange powers that jeopardized the campaign (and then he brutally destroyed them).

Remember how furious Gaius was when Rhitahtyn fell and the only thing that made sense to him was that his soldiers just didn't fight their hardest because their commander was a Roegadyn from a conquered land? That's the kind of honor I point to. (Cut to Varis spitting on the casket of a member of his family.)

There's a word for all that, but I don't think it's honor. Loyalty would be one, and a blind loyalty to the Garlean empire at that. Also, your gray comment ignores the fact that the Garleans knew the Scions were fighting the Primals in their own way (and it was actually working), yet they still attacked them, and what's more, it was with the intention of using their "strange powers" the way that they wanted. If anything, the Garlean raid on the Waking Sands seems to have been motivated by pure jealousy. Also, the "death or enslavement" (though I'd say subjugation is a better term in this case) argument belongs in the gray because it was not an option offered only to Eorzea, but rather to everyone who opposed them. That is also a part of the "chance" you claim that the Garleans gave them, and really, that chance was as much of a choice as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Garleans have the right of it in only one area: the Primals need to stop existing, perhaps even including the Twelve. Their methods of achieving this, however, are heinous no matter how you look at it.

That's how I felt about it as well.
Not that I'm implying that Gaius cared very much, given their connection, the results, and the loyalties of the dead.

As I said in my response to Cilia, the main problem I have with that is that you're forgetting that Gaius is a man who feels that the ends justify the means. He may not be insane like Livia but his morals are just as loose as hers. Also, even assuming that his only aim was the capture of the Warrior of Light (and possibly some Archons as well), you would think he would send someone he actually knew could get the job done the way he wanted it to be done, otherwise it implies he's not a very good commander if he didn't even know one of his own men/women all that well. But yeah, I agree completely that it must have been more of a "oh well" moment for him to find out that several of his enemies died in that raid.

[Cilia]

Snip

If you were tempted to join Gaius' cause at all, he was written well enough to the point where he's not a black antagonist to our white heroism.

While Garleans in general are ruthless racists, those are two things Gaius didn't follow to the letter. Keep in mind that Rhitatyn was the first ever non-Garlean tribunus, as well as that instead of just using the Ultima Weapon to mercilessly crush Eorzea under his heel he gave the city-states the option to surrender. He was also opposed to Project Meteor, though it was more out of concern for the destruction of the land leaving nothing for him to conquer than for Eorzeans. Simply put, Gaius had standards unlike the majority of the other Garleans we've seen, and genuinely believed Eorzea would be better under imperial rule.

That said, he was still villainous because he tried to take away Eorzean freedom by force, and while he did have standards he didn't hesitate when push came to shove.

While Livia probably wasn't the best choice to send on that kind of mission, well... it's war, open or otherwise. Anyone resisting is fair game. We don't exactly have the option to tell all the Garlean soldiers in Castrum and Praetorium to stand down, and they're fighting for convictions they hold just as strongly. That is why war is so tragic, and remember that history is written by the winners.

[Tenkuu]

I had chalked that up as Elidibus failing to keep him on-mission, hence the foreshadowing earlier where Lahabrea cared more about his plans than Zodiark's will. Kind of a semantic difference, no? Either way, they seemingly worked together for at least long enough to not bother with Omega directly. Elidibus seemed more angry at Lahabrea's arrogance and complacency than his actual attempt to initiate the Eighth rejoining. It was Nabriales he claimed was acting above his station. Rather, he says that the loss of Lahabrea will be felt deeply, since he was an "original" (of our world, touched by Zodiark).

Could you explain that last sentence, actually? Lahabrea *seems* like just a typical Ascian, right down to how he possessed Thancred with a dark crystal, I don't really understand the special note that's being made about him and, for that matter, Elidibus, by Nabriales.

I see the big open door for this interpretation (considering Urianger has been hearing Elidibus out and suddenly found an extra auracite). But, at the same time, I wonder if that is enough evidence to jump to discounting what we've been told (that it Moenbryda's research and she had a a back-up in her personal belongings, which he found after they reclaimed the Rising Stones). Do we have more than that?

I don't know about you, but given the end of 2.55 and Urianger's dialogue if you go talk to him at Waking Sands between that and 3.0, I really don't see Urianger as being capable of lying to us about anything. He seems too protective of all the Scions, ourselves included. He might omit to mention what he's been up regarding his secret meetings with Elidibus, but this might be because he's using Elidibus to gain all the knowledge he can to help us. I think we can draw a parallel here between Urianger's 3.0 meetings with Elidibus and Thancred's handling of his investigation into the Ascians back in 2.0. Hopefully Urianger doesn't end up in the same kind of situation.

[ChazNatlo]

Are we actually certain that the Echo was given to the Sahagin elder rather than awoken in him? If so, that would make Elidibus pretty much equal to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. And I have the same question regarding the knights and Thordan: doesn't the Echo have to be granted by either Hydaelyn or Zodiark?

Assuming he can't grant the echo, and merely fostered it in the Sahagin, Are we sure that you need the echo to uh... deiform? If not, only the Archbishop would need the Echo to maintain his free will, the Heaven's guard may have been Tempered to their primal forms, bound by loyalty to their liege, Thordan.

[Tenkuu]

If you were tempted to join Gaius' cause at all, he was written well enough to the point where he's not a black antagonist to our white heroism.

Yup, I totally agree.

While Garleans in general are ruthless racists, those are two things Gaius didn't follow to the letter. Keep in mind that Rhitatyn was the first ever non-Garlean tribunus, as well as that instead of just using the Ultima Weapon to mercilessly crush Eorzea under his heel he gave the city-states the option to surrender. He was also opposed to Project Meteor, though it was more out of concern for the destruction of the land leaving nothing for him to conquer than for Eorzeans. Simply put, Gaius had standards unlike the majority of the other Garleans we've seen, and genuinely believed Eorzea would be better under imperial rule.

That said, he was still villainous because he tried to take away Eorzean freedom by force, and while he did have standards he didn't hesitate when push came to shove.

This goes back to the idea that Gaius' proffered "choice" was really nothing more than a choice between a rock and a hard place though. Ie, it was no choice at all.

While Livia probably wasn't the best choice to send on that kind of mission, well... it's war, open or otherwise. Anyone resisting is fair game. We don't exactly have the option to tell all the Garlean soldiers in Castrum and Praetorium to stand down, and they're fighting for convictions they hold just as strongly. That is why war is so tragic, and remember that history is written by the winners.

True, but the point here is that Gaius simply didn't care all that much, and that's not exactly honorable behavior. Obviously he would have known that the Waking Sands was not exactly full of skilled combatants, else he would have sent a bigger force against them. So, knowing exactly what kind of reception he could expect there, he still sent one of his more unstable warriors to lead the charge, not really caring whether or not there would be bloodshed and, I might add, showing no remorse about it when he faces us. And you can be certain that he *did* know that Livia should be able to take on the three remaining Archons he knew would be there (assuming he knew about Lahabrea having possessed Thancred) since he himself faced the four of them back in 1.0 and it was a fairly even match-up.