3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

[Yuyuka3]

While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

I completely agree with you and Moose. It is what made fighting him so frustrating for me - I would have loved it if we could have befriend him. I didn't agree with his 'might makes right'-mentality, but that seems to be part of the Garlean mentality in general. And I think given the chance, we might have even been able to talk to him.
About the raid on the Sands... I, too, think it's Livias fault it escalated back then. They where after us (or claimed they where, anyway...) and the Scions. From what we know about Gaius, especially from his conquest of Ala Mhigo, he actually tries to limit casualties, in contrast to most of his countrymen. So, I think had he actually been there, he would have accepted Minfilia's surrender and leave the rest alone. Allas, we got Livia, and everything ended in a huge blood bath. Glad her sister is her complete opposite...

And, yeah, Gaius' definitely had a point... I hate extremism in any shape and form, though, that's why I can't relate to the Garlean Empire at all. Really sad such a great character had to be one their most loyal generals...

I actually talked about this with a friend a while ago and we both agreed that Gaius is what a villain should be - someone with both good and bad sides instead of only bad, who people can somewhat relate to and actually say 'hell, under different circumstances, I could be friends with this guy...'

[Anonymoose]

Thoughtful questions apparently get thorough answers. Apologies for the novella.

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance. Did you notice how every event from 2.2 to 2.55 looked like it was building to the Knights of the Round?

• [2.2] Elidibus grants the Sahagin elder the Echo.
• [2.3] In response to Ramuh's fall, the Ascians resolve to manipulate "the gifted" to give rise to a new primal.
• [2.4] Nabriales helps Lahabrea merge man and deiform, Shiva is summoned.
• [2.5] Unseen, Lahabrea and Elidibus grant Thordan and the Heavens' Ward the power to summon the deiform founder King and his Knights Twelve into themselves (a culmination of past experiments). Nidhogg senses their power and realizes that he might be defeated if he keeps holding back and waging a war only on their spirits. He rallies the whole of the Horde and moves on Ishgard before Thordan can move on him.

So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking it? Were they going to occupy it?

More or less. Imagine you're Garlean leadership for a moment. You've heard tales of this sacred place and know there are tons of legends about it. You find that it is a conflux for at least the whole realm (if not the whole world)'s aetherial rivers.

If your empire's mission statement is essentially Primals Are Bad, M'kay, you definitely want that place locked down when your armies move in. The last thing you need is the beast tribes tapping into that massive confluence to power the summoning of their gods. No one can be allowed to learn how to harness that power.

That's not to say that the Garleans didn't realize something bigger was up with Silvertear Lake, though... especially while pulling away from the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Fun Fact: Even after the invasion into the heart of Eorzea failed and the XIVth Legion retreated to Ala Mhigo, Gaius still held Mor Dhona (very loosely). Eorzea secured small camps around the aetherytes, but barely anyone dared venture outside of them because Gaius maintained supply camps and a troop presence. That's how Castrum Novum was raised there so fast with so few noticing.

I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable".

The whole claim hinges on the parentheses, lol.

From Garlemald's point of view, following their principles, Gaius slew aspirant usurpers of the crown, held stability by ending rebellion and rooting out insurrection, refused to discriminate based on anything but merit, and gave chance after chance for his targets of conquest to lay down their arms and embrace Imperial rule. (Before the final invasion, he even air-dropped linkpearls on Eorzea promising the full resources of the Empire towards security and unity should they accept Imperial rule and take up arms against the tribes.)

From our point of view, he mercilessly annihilated anything and everything that didn't fit his worldview and offered a "choice" of death or enslavement in a misguided campaign to rid the world of symptoms of its illness while only exacerbating it.

In the gray - if you look closely, he made efforts to "save" everyone who might end up coming around to join him - to "bring glory to the Empire and stability to the world". He only gave up on people who embraced the primals and insurrection and strange powers that jeopardized the campaign (and then he brutally destroyed them).

Remember how furious Gaius was when Rhitahtyn fell and the only thing that made sense to him was that his soldiers just didn't fight their hardest because their commander was a Roegadyn from a conquered land? That's the kind of honor I point to. (Cut to Varis spitting on the casket of a member of his family.)

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity).

That's how I felt about it as well.
Not that I'm implying that Gaius cared very much, given their connection, the results, and the loyalties of the dead.

[CyrilLucifer]

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance.

Just for the sake of discussion, since we don't know either way, I'm not sure I agree with this.

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality. Lahabrea's little side group from 2.0's ending seemingly has a different desire, being more hasty and forcing an early rejoining; according to 3.0's epilogue, that particular rejoining was not agreed upon by "the others," or by Elidibus, so I don't see Lahabrea as truly working with Elidibus at all other than in a temporary truce, or as a slap on the hand.

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans. He knew there was a risk of Lahabrea acting out again - just like he did.

[Rocl]

Was it not Moenbryda who deduced the power of white auracite and its ability to be used against Ascians? Even further Urianger explicitly tells us the white auracite he gifts us was from Moenbryda's effects.

While it's not entirely impossible Elidibus helped move these pieces in to place, we have no real evidence to support it either.

[Anonymoose]

Disclaimers:
These are just my current theories and interpretations. They could change quite easily.
I'm not arguing alternative interpretations as wrong - just answering questions about my own (and long before they've been polished).

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality.

I had chalked that up as Elidibus failing to keep him on-mission, hence the foreshadowing earlier where Lahabrea cared more about his plans than Zodiark's will. Kind of a semantic difference, no? Either way, they seemingly worked together for at least long enough to not bother with Omega directly. Elidibus seemed more angry at Lahabrea's arrogance and complacency than his actual attempt to initiate the Eighth rejoining. It was Nabriales he claimed was acting above his station. Rather, he says that the loss of Lahabrea will be felt deeply, since he was an "original" (of our world, touched by Zodiark).

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans.

I see the big open door for this interpretation (considering Urianger has been hearing Elidibus out and suddenly found an extra auracite). But, at the same time, I wonder if that is enough evidence to jump to discounting what we've been told (that it Moenbryda's research and she had a a back-up in her personal belongings, which he found after they reclaimed the Rising Stones). Do we have more than that?

I'm also not sure the whole mortal-primal bit was Elidibus' doing, either, at least not with Thordan.

That's just my current theory (hence lots of words like seems).
I'm guessing that they split the work - Elidibus worked on the Echo, Lahabrea worked on the primal merge.
In the "something's up in Ishgard" foreshadow cutscene, they were both standing behind Thordan's throne.

Elidibus clearly doesn't want the Triad awakening via Primals, and what was Thordan doing?

First impressions? Betraying the Ascians in ways Lahabrea - in his arrogance and complacency - did not foresee or account for.
Elidibus seems more ready for the Garleans to be messing with the Triad.
I actually forget if Thordan talked much of the Slumbering Gods directly to Lahabrea.

[ChazNatlo]

Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

Before anything else, can I just say how delighted I am that "yelling into the void" needn't be figurative?

Cloud of Darkness: "Damn man, just shut the hell up!"

[CyrilLucifer]

Was it not Moenbryda who deduced the power of white auracite and its ability to be used against Ascians? Even further Urianger explicitly tells us the white auracite he gifts us was from Moenbryda's effects.

While it's not entirely impossible Elidibus helped move these pieces in to place, we have no real evidence to support it either.

The general idea is that it seems really, really odd that all the way through Heavensward Urianger knew about you, but suddenly decided to go through Moenbryda's belongings to find a dues ex machina that, theoretically, could have helped you much sooner. Right before you go up against Lahabrea, nonetheless.

If that's not completely suspicious, I don't know what is.

That or it's just SE being lazy in their storytelling method and not finding another way to give us a white auracite so they're like "Let's have a long-dead character just have a spare item of incredible power and usefulness, because no one really checked."

[Anonymoose]

The general idea is that it seems really, really odd that all the way through Heavensward Urianger knew about you, but suddenly decided to go through Moenbryda's belongings to find a dues ex machina that, theoretically, could have helped you much sooner. Right before you go up against Lahabrea, nonetheless.

I agree that it's suspicious, but for the sake of a Devil's Advocate...

Moenbryda's effects were in the Rising Stones. After her death, Urianger went back to the Waking Sands to work out his emotional state. He couldn't even bring himself to go to the Scions' memorial, never mind start going through her things. That's a post-closure thing; he wasn't ready.

While he was in Thanalan, you met with Midgardsormr and went about the Steps of Faith. The success of that led to the feast in Ul'dah, where everything went to hell and the Rising Stones were lost. From there, you don't actually reclaim the Rising Stones until Nanamo is awakened.

In Heavensward, Urianger spent most of his time dealing with the Ul'dah situation (Raubahn, Pipin, etc.) while you went about the Aery, rebellion in Ishgard, and Bismarck ... and then he was right is back with you again to find Y'shtola. He might not even have made it to the Rising Stones until you went off to find Matoya and build the aetheric ram. He shows up with the Auracite just after you get back.

For all we know he'd just gotten there, resolved to go through her stuff, and - hot damn - she'd had a back-up auracite.

[CyrilLucifer]

snip.

I can suspend my disbelief to some extent, but honestly in this case Urianger's timing was just too damn good. It was too convenient. It will be very jarring for me, as a player, if it just ends up as one massive coincidence of perfect timing and I will be beyond disappointed in the method chosen by SE to give the item to us.

[Cilia]

I can suspend my disbelief to some extent, but honestly in this case Urianger's timing was just too damn good. It was too convenient.

I never felt like anything was off about it. In retrospect it does seem a bit convenient, but as the one Ascian who has so far shown a speck of decorum I have a hard time believing Elidibus would sell out Lahabrea and Igeyorhm even though they went rogue. While he does disagree with Lahabrea's actions during 2.0, he still believes they were worth it, as they led to unexpected results (finding us). He also seems (flatly) annoyed that the duo was actually killed and that he has to clean up their mess.

Plus, with King Thordan as a seemingly unknown variable, we only had the one Auracite. If Elidibus wanted them both killed, he would have supplied us with two; though we don't yet know the rarity of the material, I'm quite confident he could easily obtain it. Why didn't he? (And please don't say it was "to teach them a lesson;" I'm pretty sure they all learned we were seriously dangerous after Nabriales' death. Lahabrea remained arrogant, and Igeyorhm wasn't yet on the stage.)