3.1 MSQ Reaction [SPOILERS]

[Cilia]

Did we see the death of Gaius van Baelsar the man, or only the end of Gaius van Baelsar, Legatus of the XIVth Imperial Legion and loyal servant of Garlemald?

While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

Aside from being out of commission... who knows. It might be an impractical solution, or it could be because Lolorito and Teledji were already going at it. Where they learned about it from, who knows? Maybe it was even... an Ascian! Dun dun dun!

So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking [Silvertear Lake]? Were they going to occupy it?

Probably. If they controlled Silvertear Lake, not only would they be assured that Primals would still be hard to summon, but it would probably be a great source of aether for their magitek.

I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable". Not to mention that he essentially made his move against the Waking Sands when the Warrior of Light was otherwise occupied and then proceeded to capture those he did not kill. To me, Gaius is not so much honorable as, like you said, a true believer. More than that though, I think he was a very practical man who, instead of relying on blind faith in some gods who only respond to crystals, instead relied purely on his own strengths and abilities.

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

[Yuyuka3]

While I would also like Gaius to come back, as he was a good and honorable opponent for the most part who we could have been friends with under better circumstances, he was stuck in the exploding Praetorium we ourselves barely managed to escape. While he can come back, perhaps reformed as Nero seems set to, that would be a bit of a Deus ex Machina in my opinion unless they did it really well.

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity). He probably told her to go capture the Archons, and well... she's kind of a psycho bitch, so wouldn't care how many casualties she caused - her orders were to capture the Archons, anything else she could take liberties with.

Gaius was definitely a true believer, but to be fair, he had some valid points even if he was too extreme to really be good. He was also definitely a professional, practical man who relied on his own abilities instead of a deity, which is why I respect him so much.

I completely agree with you and Moose. It is what made fighting him so frustrating for me - I would have loved it if we could have befriend him. I didn't agree with his 'might makes right'-mentality, but that seems to be part of the Garlean mentality in general. And I think given the chance, we might have even been able to talk to him.
About the raid on the Sands... I, too, think it's Livias fault it escalated back then. They where after us (or claimed they where, anyway...) and the Scions. From what we know about Gaius, especially from his conquest of Ala Mhigo, he actually tries to limit casualties, in contrast to most of his countrymen. So, I think had he actually been there, he would have accepted Minfilia's surrender and leave the rest alone. Allas, we got Livia, and everything ended in a huge blood bath. Glad her sister is her complete opposite...

And, yeah, Gaius' definitely had a point... I hate extremism in any shape and form, though, that's why I can't relate to the Garlean Empire at all. Really sad such a great character had to be one their most loyal generals...

I actually talked about this with a friend a while ago and we both agreed that Gaius is what a villain should be - someone with both good and bad sides instead of only bad, who people can somewhat relate to and actually say 'hell, under different circumstances, I could be friends with this guy...'

[Anonymoose]

Thoughtful questions apparently get thorough answers. Apologies for the novella.

About that, why didn't Lahabrea go for Omega after Ultima's destruction?

Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance. Did you notice how every event from 2.2 to 2.55 looked like it was building to the Knights of the Round?

• [2.2] Elidibus grants the Sahagin elder the Echo.
• [2.3] In response to Ramuh's fall, the Ascians resolve to manipulate "the gifted" to give rise to a new primal.
• [2.4] Nabriales helps Lahabrea merge man and deiform, Shiva is summoned.
• [2.5] Unseen, Lahabrea and Elidibus grant Thordan and the Heavens' Ward the power to summon the deiform founder King and his Knights Twelve into themselves (a culmination of past experiments). Nidhogg senses their power and realizes that he might be defeated if he keeps holding back and waging a war only on their spirits. He rallies the whole of the Horde and moves on Ishgard before Thordan can move on him.

So what were they aiming to accomplish by attacking it? Were they going to occupy it?

More or less. Imagine you're Garlean leadership for a moment. You've heard tales of this sacred place and know there are tons of legends about it. You find that it is a conflux for at least the whole realm (if not the whole world)'s aetherial rivers.

If your empire's mission statement is essentially Primals Are Bad, M'kay, you definitely want that place locked down when your armies move in. The last thing you need is the beast tribes tapping into that massive confluence to power the summoning of their gods. No one can be allowed to learn how to harness that power.

That's not to say that the Garleans didn't realize something bigger was up with Silvertear Lake, though... especially while pulling away from the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Fun Fact: Even after the invasion into the heart of Eorzea failed and the XIVth Legion retreated to Ala Mhigo, Gaius still held Mor Dhona (very loosely). Eorzea secured small camps around the aetherytes, but barely anyone dared venture outside of them because Gaius maintained supply camps and a troop presence. That's how Castrum Novum was raised there so fast with so few noticing.

I don't think I can call a man who would sanction the slaughter of several innocents "honorable".

The whole claim hinges on the parentheses, lol.

From Garlemald's point of view, following their principles, Gaius slew aspirant usurpers of the crown, held stability by ending rebellion and rooting out insurrection, refused to discriminate based on anything but merit, and gave chance after chance for his targets of conquest to lay down their arms and embrace Imperial rule. (Before the final invasion, he even air-dropped linkpearls on Eorzea promising the full resources of the Empire towards security and unity should they accept Imperial rule and take up arms against the tribes.)

From our point of view, he mercilessly annihilated anything and everything that didn't fit his worldview and offered a "choice" of death or enslavement in a misguided campaign to rid the world of symptoms of its illness while only exacerbating it.

In the gray - if you look closely, he made efforts to "save" everyone who might end up coming around to join him - to "bring glory to the Empire and stability to the world". He only gave up on people who embraced the primals and insurrection and strange powers that jeopardized the campaign (and then he brutally destroyed them).

Remember how furious Gaius was when Rhitahtyn fell and the only thing that made sense to him was that his soldiers just didn't fight their hardest because their commander was a Roegadyn from a conquered land? That's the kind of honor I point to. (Cut to Varis spitting on the casket of a member of his family.)

If you're referring exclusively to the Waking Sands raid... the casualties were likely a result of Livia's rather loose morality (and sanity).

That's how I felt about it as well.
Not that I'm implying that Gaius cared very much, given their connection, the results, and the loyalties of the dead.

[CyrilLucifer]

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance.

Just for the sake of discussion, since we don't know either way, I'm not sure I agree with this.

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality. Lahabrea's little side group from 2.0's ending seemingly has a different desire, being more hasty and forcing an early rejoining; according to 3.0's epilogue, that particular rejoining was not agreed upon by "the others," or by Elidibus, so I don't see Lahabrea as truly working with Elidibus at all other than in a temporary truce, or as a slap on the hand.

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans. He knew there was a risk of Lahabrea acting out again - just like he did.

[Anonymoose]

Disclaimers:
These are just my current theories and interpretations. They could change quite easily.
I'm not arguing alternative interpretations as wrong - just answering questions about my own (and long before they've been polished).

The key thing here is that Elidibus may have thought he convinced Lahabrea to work with him, reigning him in from being so rash, but I don't really think that was the reality.

I had chalked that up as Elidibus failing to keep him on-mission, hence the foreshadowing earlier where Lahabrea cared more about his plans than Zodiark's will. Kind of a semantic difference, no? Either way, they seemingly worked together for at least long enough to not bother with Omega directly. Elidibus seemed more angry at Lahabrea's arrogance and complacency than his actual attempt to initiate the Eighth rejoining. It was Nabriales he claimed was acting above his station. Rather, he says that the loss of Lahabrea will be felt deeply, since he was an "original" (of our world, touched by Zodiark).

It would also explain why Elidibus would offer Urianger either the knowledge of, or possibly gifting the actual item itself, white auracite, despite seemingly being surprised at Lahabrea's 3.0 plans.

I see the big open door for this interpretation (considering Urianger has been hearing Elidibus out and suddenly found an extra auracite). But, at the same time, I wonder if that is enough evidence to jump to discounting what we've been told (that it Moenbryda's research and she had a a back-up in her personal belongings, which he found after they reclaimed the Rising Stones). Do we have more than that?

I'm also not sure the whole mortal-primal bit was Elidibus' doing, either, at least not with Thordan.

That's just my current theory (hence lots of words like seems).
I'm guessing that they split the work - Elidibus worked on the Echo, Lahabrea worked on the primal merge.
In the "something's up in Ishgard" foreshadow cutscene, they were both standing behind Thordan's throne.

Elidibus clearly doesn't want the Triad awakening via Primals, and what was Thordan doing?

First impressions? Betraying the Ascians in ways Lahabrea - in his arrogance and complacency - did not foresee or account for.
Elidibus seems more ready for the Garleans to be messing with the Triad.
I actually forget if Thordan talked much of the Slumbering Gods directly to Lahabrea.

[Tenkuu]

I had chalked that up as Elidibus failing to keep him on-mission, hence the foreshadowing earlier where Lahabrea cared more about his plans than Zodiark's will. Kind of a semantic difference, no? Either way, they seemingly worked together for at least long enough to not bother with Omega directly. Elidibus seemed more angry at Lahabrea's arrogance and complacency than his actual attempt to initiate the Eighth rejoining. It was Nabriales he claimed was acting above his station. Rather, he says that the loss of Lahabrea will be felt deeply, since he was an "original" (of our world, touched by Zodiark).

Could you explain that last sentence, actually? Lahabrea *seems* like just a typical Ascian, right down to how he possessed Thancred with a dark crystal, I don't really understand the special note that's being made about him and, for that matter, Elidibus, by Nabriales.

I see the big open door for this interpretation (considering Urianger has been hearing Elidibus out and suddenly found an extra auracite). But, at the same time, I wonder if that is enough evidence to jump to discounting what we've been told (that it Moenbryda's research and she had a a back-up in her personal belongings, which he found after they reclaimed the Rising Stones). Do we have more than that?

I don't know about you, but given the end of 2.55 and Urianger's dialogue if you go talk to him at Waking Sands between that and 3.0, I really don't see Urianger as being capable of lying to us about anything. He seems too protective of all the Scions, ourselves included. He might omit to mention what he's been up regarding his secret meetings with Elidibus, but this might be because he's using Elidibus to gain all the knowledge he can to help us. I think we can draw a parallel here between Urianger's 3.0 meetings with Elidibus and Thancred's handling of his investigation into the Ascians back in 2.0. Hopefully Urianger doesn't end up in the same kind of situation.

[CyrilLucifer]

Could you explain that last sentence, actually? Lahabrea *seems* like just a typical Ascian, right down to how he possessed Thancred with a dark crystal, I don't really understand the special note that's being made about him and, for that matter, Elidibus, by Nabriales.

He's referring to the line by Nabriales in 2.5. Nabriales specifically says that because he is not like Elidibus and Lahabrea and not "of this world" he was not capable of entering the Rising Stones until Hydaelyn's Blessing was removed, implying he may be slightly lesser than Lahabrea, but still above the unnamed, numbered Ascians.

It hasn't really been elaborated on beyond that, but with it we can hypothesize some sort of hierarchy.
- Elidibus is hard. He might be above the others, or different entirely like he was in FFT. I'm putting him at the top just because of that scene in 2.3 where everyone seemed to surround him and he spoke like he was representing them all. Nabriales knew he had to listen to Elidibus, however, and whined about how Elidibus and whatever laws exist were restricting him, so he definitely seems pretty high in overall rank.
- Lahabrea and those "of this world," assuming there's more to this we don't know.
- Nabriales and possibly Igeyorhm.
- Numbered Arcana Lesser Ascians, 12th Chalice, so on.
- The Corse-like Ascians from vanilla XIV.

The primary differences we've been shown so far between Lesser and the named Overlords is that the Overlords can survive outside of a host body. Lessers need a dead host body present if their old one is destroyed or they're gone for good. Only Overlords can possess the living.

Lessers also may have been uplifted to their position, evidenced by that one line from 12th Chalice in the SMN questline of being "Raised unto greatness by Lahabrea himself." You can see this in the first 2-3 lines of the only cutscene that was recorded for the quest. This actually has really, really interesting implications.

[ChazNatlo]

Based on Elidibus' conversation with Minfilia about how defeat had stuck in his craw, I like to imagine that he was regaining his strength, reformulating his plan, and skulking about Ascian HQ - yelling into the void and kicking things.

Before anything else, can I just say how delighted I am that "yelling into the void" needn't be figurative?

Cloud of Darkness: "Damn man, just shut the hell up!"

[Tenkuu]

Thoughtful questions apparently get thorough answers. Apologies for the novella.

Are you kidding? I'm flattered that you think my questions thoughtful. *bows* Nice to meet you btw.

In reality, though, I think it was Elidibus' doing. The two worked very closely in later patches, and Elidibus was often seen trying to keep him on-mission. I think he convinced him to think bigger and heed his guidance. Did you notice how every event from 2.2 to 2.55 looked like it was building to the Knights of the Round?

• [2.2] Elidibus grants the Sahagin elder the Echo.
  [...]
• [2.5] Unseen, Lahabrea and Elidibus grant Thordan and the Heavens' Ward the power to summon the deiform founder King and his Knights Twelve into themselves (a culmination of past experiments). Nidhogg senses their power and realizes that he might be defeated if he keeps holding back and waging a war only on their spirits. He rallies the whole of the Horde and moves on Ishgard before Thordan can move on him.

Are we actually certain that the Echo was given to the Sahagin elder rather than awoken in him? If so, that would make Elidibus pretty much equal to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. And I have the same question regarding the knights and Thordan: doesn't the Echo have to be granted by either Hydaelyn or Zodiark? About Nidhogg, interesting that you put it that way, but is this your speculation or is it confirmed anywhere? I am not remembering any cutscenes being particularly specific about Nidhogg's intentions being anything other than waging a war of attrition.

More or less. Imagine you're Garlean leadership for a moment. You've heard tales of this sacred place and know there are tons of legends about it. You find that it is a conflux for at least the whole realm (if not the whole world)'s aetherial rivers.

If your empire's mission statement is essentially Primals Are Bad, M'kay, you definitely want that place locked down when your armies move in. The last thing you need is the beast tribes tapping into that massive confluence to power the summoning of their gods. No one can be allowed to learn how to harness that power.

That's not to say that the Garleans didn't realize something bigger was up with Silvertear Lake, though... especially while pulling away from the Battle of Silvertear Skies.

Fun Fact: Even after the invasion into the heart of Eorzea failed and the XIVth Legion retreated to Ala Mhigo, Gaius still held Mor Dhona (very loosely). Eorzea secured small camps around the aetherytes, but barely anyone dared venture outside of them because Gaius maintained supply camps and a troop presence. That's how Castrum Novum was raised there so fast with so few noticing.

So, in essence, they had no idea what they were actually getting into and that the place not only couldn't be held but was also already under protection by Midgarsormr. That's the long and short of what you're saying if I'm not misunderstanding?

The whole claim hinges on the parentheses, lol.

From Garlemald's point of view, following their principles, Gaius slew aspirant usurpers of the crown, held stability by ending rebellion and rooting out insurrection, refused to discriminate based on anything but merit, and gave chance after chance for his targets of conquest to lay down their arms and embrace Imperial rule. (Before the final invasion, he even air-dropped linkpearls on Eorzea promising the full resources of the Empire towards security and unity should they accept Imperial rule and take up arms against the tribes.)

From our point of view, he mercilessly annihilated anything and everything that didn't fit his worldview and offered a "choice" of death or enslavement in a misguided campaign to rid the world of symptoms of its illness while only exacerbating it.

In the gray - if you look closely, he made efforts to "save" everyone who might end up coming around to join him - to "bring glory to the Empire and stability to the world". He only gave up on people who embraced the primals and insurrection and strange powers that jeopardized the campaign (and then he brutally destroyed them).

Remember how furious Gaius was when Rhitahtyn fell and the only thing that made sense to him was that his soldiers just didn't fight their hardest because their commander was a Roegadyn from a conquered land? That's the kind of honor I point to. (Cut to Varis spitting on the casket of a member of his family.)

There's a word for all that, but I don't think it's honor. Loyalty would be one, and a blind loyalty to the Garlean empire at that. Also, your gray comment ignores the fact that the Garleans knew the Scions were fighting the Primals in their own way (and it was actually working), yet they still attacked them, and what's more, it was with the intention of using their "strange powers" the way that they wanted. If anything, the Garlean raid on the Waking Sands seems to have been motivated by pure jealousy. Also, the "death or enslavement" (though I'd say subjugation is a better term in this case) argument belongs in the gray because it was not an option offered only to Eorzea, but rather to everyone who opposed them. That is also a part of the "chance" you claim that the Garleans gave them, and really, that chance was as much of a choice as being stuck between a rock and a hard place. The Garleans have the right of it in only one area: the Primals need to stop existing, perhaps even including the Twelve. Their methods of achieving this, however, are heinous no matter how you look at it.

That's how I felt about it as well.
Not that I'm implying that Gaius cared very much, given their connection, the results, and the loyalties of the dead.

As I said in my response to Cilia, the main problem I have with that is that you're forgetting that Gaius is a man who feels that the ends justify the means. He may not be insane like Livia but his morals are just as loose as hers. Also, even assuming that his only aim was the capture of the Warrior of Light (and possibly some Archons as well), you would think he would send someone he actually knew could get the job done the way he wanted it to be done, otherwise it implies he's not a very good commander if he didn't even know one of his own men/women all that well. But yeah, I agree completely that it must have been more of a "oh well" moment for him to find out that several of his enemies died in that raid.

[ChazNatlo]

Are we actually certain that the Echo was given to the Sahagin elder rather than awoken in him? If so, that would make Elidibus pretty much equal to both Zodiark and Hydaelyn. And I have the same question regarding the knights and Thordan: doesn't the Echo have to be granted by either Hydaelyn or Zodiark?

Assuming he can't grant the echo, and merely fostered it in the Sahagin, Are we sure that you need the echo to uh... deiform? If not, only the Archbishop would need the Echo to maintain his free will, the Heaven's guard may have been Tempered to their primal forms, bound by loyalty to their liege, Thordan.