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  1. #91
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,856
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    At a 2.5s GCD, you have the option of reapplying GB's DoT 1.5 seconds early or 1 second late (SS once). [Take your pick.]
    At a 2.4s GCD you have the option of replacing it 2.4 seconds early, or 0 seconds late (SS once). [Pick is obvious.]
    I'll admit, I've got a lot more SS than I want right now, but for me Swiping once per GB is a definite dps increase.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons View Post
    150 + 230 + 500 or (220+280)/3= 293.33 potency per combo move average

    150 + 230 + 210 + 540 (220+ 320)/4= 282.5 potency per combo move on average.

    That's why the only way it's a DPS increase is if your next move will be less than 210 potency and you'll lose your combo due to the boss becoming untargettable, a.k.a. Fast Blade.
    There's no point in comparing their values over 4 GCDs when GB requires nearly 10 GCDs (at 2.5, or exactly 10 at 2.4) to deal its full damage. It should be considered in the window of its actual rotation.

    Let's look at the potency dealt over 2 GBs, 48 seconds, using the 2.4 GCD, starting from the application of the first GB and ending in the application of a third, under the two situations.

    Clip: [500]+150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+500 :: +150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+500+150+200
    >> 500 + (690*4) + (880*2) + 150 + 200 >> 5,420
    Swipe: [540]+210+150+200+340+340+150+200+340+150+230+540 :: +210+150+200+340+150+200+340+150+230+540
    >> 540 + (690*4) + (920*2) + (210*2) >> 5,560
    That's a 120 lead in potency, (not so) coincidentally the exact sum of simply having not clipped off 1 tick of each GB.

    Now, if you blame my window of observation for these results, consider:
    With the GCD thereafter, Clip will add 340 and Swipe will only add 150 (5760 vs. 5710, clip's lead), but...
    (but that is not a rotation; ultimately you will still only be able to use two RA combos. You may reach your later instances of RA sooner, but you won't have more, rotationally, than the Swipe rotation.)
    Add a second GCD and that's 150 to Clip and 200 to Swipe, and they're equal (5910).
    Add a third GCD and again Swipe leads, 200 vs. 340 (6110 vs. 6250).
    And it will continue to vary with the latest nuke, which Clip will reach faster, until Swipe's higher rotational strength exceeds the difference between the start and end of combo (5 RAs). But if we're looking at rotations here, then... look at the full rotation (GB window).

    Again, this is dependent on, explicitly, a 2.4s GCD as on my own PLD. At 2.5s you are actually looking at the possibility of wasting a tick vs. missing an opportunity for a tick, where there isn't nearly such a clearly preferable rotation. But if look at GB as it is, rather than as a spammable weaponskill, with the GCD you quoted, using Swipe once per GB is quite simply a better rotation (unless you somehow know the exact second at which a boss will jump, would have been able to end with a RA instead of an SB if you hadn't Swiped, and if said boss will jump in less than 4 completed GBs).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyne_Lyons View Post
    You're splitting hairs over what is universally proven a DPS loss. The same logic on DoT clipping applies to every other job in the game, in every definitive rotational guide. As long as the clip is greater potency than any other possible choice on button push, you gain DPS by clipping and losing a tick. If you Shield Swipe, you lose DPS versus any other choice Paladin can make. It won't matter in a day, so I guess it ultimately doesn't matter. Yay off the GCD!
    Again, it has nothing to do with the alternative potencies for that button push. It has to do with the rotation that will be caused by pushing that button.

    There's always a move that is stronger than a clip. It's the same DoT, without the clip. Unless avoiding the clip prevents you from using a better timed move down the line (again, a matter of... avoiding clipping), you should always avoid the clip. You want to get the most out of every buff and debuff. If it requires that I use a individually inferior filler to get, in total, more out of my overall rotation, I will do so.

    A Monk is at Raptor form with 6s left on Demolish, 8s left on DK, 10s left on Twin, and Fracture not currently up or with less than 4s remaining. Is he going to clip or Fracture? Or would you rather sac 9.6% of your Demo and 13.3% of your DK and Twin, in order to get to the same exact loss of potential potency 1 GCD earlier as the next Demo nears its end?

    DRG's rotation is unique in that, frankly, it has two GCD plateaus, one of which fits the needs of Geirskogul/WT/F&C, and another pre-BotD rotation that fits its original ability windows (CT/FT combos, HT, Phb). The 3.x rotation must sac a full CT in order to hit HT and Phb at their perfect times and simply because the only alternative to using another CT 5-7 seconds early is to apply it 5 to 3 seconds late. A pre-F&C/WT DRG can fit 2 Full Thrusts, Heavy Thrust, and Phlebotomize into each CT, losslessly, or 3 Full Thrusts and losing HT's buff on its reapplication only, using a 2.33-2.35 GCD, such that each buff/debuff duration is reapplied with less than a half-second to spare. To say that a job that has shattered its original rotation in order to uniquely support a 600p/min oGCD specific to its job is a prime example for all others is ridiculous. You have abilities, and you seek to get the most out of them, for the greatest overall dps... That's the prime rule--greatest overall potency, not 'most potency in a given GCD'. (How do I not get myself into this bind? > what's my best option, now that I'm in an inferior position?)

    Food for thought: by increasing Skill Speed in a 3.x rotation and dropping Phlebotomize, you can fit an extra FT (and therefore WT/ into each CT, allowing an extra Geirskogul per minute, a free, no-compromise, 200 potency or 3.33 pps. In the normal rotation, Phb is maintained perfectly, providing 410 every 24s, or 17 pps, but at the cost of a GCD and other rotational opportunities. Maintaining HT into the next HT gives another .85 pps. An extra FT+1 per CT gives an extra 1000 potency per 30s, or 33.3 pps. Getting another 2-3 ticks off CT gives it another 35-70 potency or 1.7-2.3 pps. If Skill Speed were weighted equally with Critical strike, which then would you pick?
    (0)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 11-09-2015 at 07:21 AM.

  2. #92
    Player Nadirah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,978
    Character
    Nadirah Serenity
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeonx View Post

    they share the same timer.
    You mean the global cooldown? No crap, yo u don't say... gcd ability on the gcd....

    I *like* my on gcd stun. I can spam the crap out of a SIX SECOND STUN if I need to. ogcd stuns are shorter and tend to be used on cd for the damage component.

    Pld tp problem is when offtanking.

    After change, SS being oGCD and not being used essentially makes you bad. Free damage.
    (0)

  3. #93
    Player Nadirah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,978
    Character
    Nadirah Serenity
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by SwordCoheir View Post
    Truth be told, I think the LB change was meant to help out DPS options more than tanks, but despite the prolonged suffering PLD's and possibly DRK's will have to endure it might make SE see the see how lopsided WAR is favored now that the LB limitation is gone.
    I'm almost certain the double class limit break change only affects solo queue able content, while the old method *plus*the three of one type rule added affects Savage (and anything else you must have a full party to queue for (Thordan).
    (0)

  4. #94
    Player
    SwordCoheir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    866
    Character
    Sword Coheir
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadirah View Post
    I'm almost certain the double class limit break change only affects solo queue able content, while the old method *plus*the three of one type rule added affects Savage (and anything else you must have a full party to queue for (Thordan).
    Yeah, I had admittedly misread it on my initial readthrough.
    (0)

    Support RDM Development: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/42776-How-Would-You-Design-Red-Mage%21[/center]

  5. #95
    Player
    Xenosan's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,021
    Character
    Goffard Gaffgarion
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 73
    The LB change is meant to discourage solo tank / solo heal compositions for content going forward and back to 2.x.

    One tank or one healer means three or more of another type.
    (1)
    Last edited by Xenosan; 11-09-2015 at 01:44 AM.

  6. #96
    Player
    Jpec07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    868
    Character
    Matthias Gendrin
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashkendor View Post
    Yep... My PLD at i201 is arguably worse than my DRK at i193. :/
    My 158 DRK feels like she's a better tank than my 196 PLD. DRK has an enormous AoE toolkit, mitigation that's just about as good as PLD (in some cases better), and a more compelling gameplay style.

    And to agree with OP, these changes won't help that. Sure, I'll do more DPS against the mob I have targeted. But I'm not worried about that mob; I'm worried about the seven others that the BLM keeps pulling off of me. And Flash only does so much.

    EDIT: I should not have to save my only offensive CD for AoE enmity or risk losing all of it. CoS doesn't do the trick without it.
    (0)
    Last edited by Jpec07; 11-09-2015 at 03:48 AM.
    __________________________
    A dungeon party with two summoners always makes me egi.

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  7. #97
    Player
    Kyne_Lyons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Kyne Lyons
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Stuff.
    You're splitting hairs over what is universally proven a DPS loss. The same logic on DoT clipping applies to every other job in the game, in every definitive rotational guide. As long as the clip is greater potency than any other possible choice on button push, you gain DPS by clipping and losing a tick. If you Shield Swipe, you lose DPS versus any other choice Paladin can make. It won't matter in a day, so I guess it ultimately doesn't matter. Yay off the GCD!
    (0)
    Last edited by Kyne_Lyons; 11-09-2015 at 02:20 AM.

  8. #98
    Player Nadirah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Gridania
    Posts
    1,978
    Character
    Nadirah Serenity
    World
    Excalibur
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 60
    Thought DRG clipped midway in their normal rotation always? Or I'm remembering wrong in my half awake state.
    (0)

  9. #99
    Player
    Kyne_Lyons's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    134
    Character
    Kyne Lyons
    World
    Midgardsormr
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    It's not midway, it's more like when CT has 3ish seconds left on it depending on Skill Speed. But again, it doesn't really matter anymore, lol.
    (0)

  10. #100
    Player
    Dhex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,006
    Character
    Jadus Salaheem
    World
    Ultros
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Xenosan View Post
    The LB change is meant to discourage solo tank / solo heal compositions for content going forward and back to 2.x.

    One tank or one healer means three or more of another type.
    Yeah this is what I gleamed from the LB changes.
    (0)

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